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Hi: I know this has wandered far from the original question , but I have a small insight. I have made swages . draw plates and grooved rollers, and used them to make wire.The insight is that some problems are solved using "shop wisdom" , and some problems are solved by Leonardo or Newton inventing a new way of thinking.. Not just an idea but a different thinking pattern. Any craftsman who understands mold making to do casting will understand swaging. It is just molds that use hammering or pressure. Drawplates may have evolved from gauges or burnishers , but the process of making a drawplate requires understanding that is very different from the way wire was made before. The same for rolling wire. So the question of earliest use is hard from our looking backwards, We have the idea and can see how it could have been possible using the tools and materials available. Was it done? Involves many more things Daniel -----Original Message----- From: David Loepp <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Thu, Dec 30, 2021 6:26 pm Subject: Re: [EXT]Re: When was copper rolled to wire in Europe? The usual acceptance of the term swage refers to forging metal into a die that is decorative or has a specific shape. The classic swage block has series of grooves of different shapes of various dimensions such as half round, V-cut or square. The more common swage block consists of half-round grooves which can be used to produce half round wire by hammering a bar into the groove. The grooves can also be used to form round wire and draw down or taper wire by hammer. These latter actions can also be performed by a competent smith on an anvil flat. Ancient matrices in cast bronze were used to form sheet into decorations by placing a force such as lead on the back of the sheet and hammering the sheet into the matrix hollow. This would not qualify as swaging. There are however some matrices that have series of half round grooves of various dimensions along the sides. An example is a matrix from the hoard of tools, matrices and objects found in the Illyrian town of Daors, dated 4th-2nd century BC. The grooves are 1.9 cm long and may likely have been used to round or draw down wire for want of a simpler explanation. The same matrix also has a series of beaded wire dies on one of the faces. Source: Mikhail Y. Treister, Hammering Techniques in Greek and Roman Jewellery and Toreutics, Fig. 80. See also fig. 85. Beyond this I do not currently know of similar objects that could have been used for swaging at an earlier date. David ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the ARCH-METALS list, click the following link: https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=ARCH-METALS&A=1 This message was issued to members of www.jiscmail.ac.uk/ARCH-METALS, a mailing list hosted by www.jiscmail.ac.uk, terms & conditions are available at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/ ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the ARCH-METALS list, click the following link: https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/WA-JISC.exe?SUBED1=ARCH-METALS&A=1 This message was issued to members of www.jiscmail.ac.uk/ARCH-METALS, a mailing list hosted by www.jiscmail.ac.uk, terms & conditions are available at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/