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Dear all, I must confess I have ever met this word "escarreur", neither Anna Baydova who has completed a Phd on the illustration of books in Paris in the 16th century. But I do not spend enough time in the archives. Vanessa De : "Ad Stijnman" <[log in to unmask]> A : [log in to unmask] Date : 02/10/2021 00:09 Objet : Re: English term wanted Envoyé par : "Announcement list for BlocksPlatesStones" <[log in to unmask]> Indeed, Richard, there very well may not have been a common, historical term for this object. My original question concerned whether there existed a modern English term for an object for which I only found a French 16th-century word: escarreur. Incidently, are there any (native) French speakers in the audience who are familiar with this or its modern French version? It will relate to the verb 'carrer'. People working within the same workshop develop a common language about the tools, materials and techniques they are handling. It prevents miscommunication among them and thereby sees to more efficient working procedures. But terms and expressions may differ between workshops, while otherwise itinerant workers may introduce their expressions in other workshops and even in foreign languages. My suggestion follows what others already mentioned: to settle for an authorised term, ie a word or short phrase that describes what is meant. Next this word or phrase should be defined unambiguously and, if available, it could furthermore relate to earlier or historical expressions that more or less concern the same. Definition is key here, as Cicero already remarked that you can only have a proper discussion after you have agreed on the definition about what it is that you want to discuss. The authorised term is short for ease of discussion and therefore is of secondary importance. The earlier expressions are helpful in historical research. Elements for the discussion on the definition could be: - object: block - material: wood - dimensions: height 1–3 cm, h x w varies but doesn't exceed c. 20 x 30 cm - specific: hole inside and through the block for fitting in another block - use: top surface cut with an ornamental design to be printed in relief - function: creates a border within which different blocks with different designs can be fit, one after the other, in order to create different images that otherwise are related by size and ornamentation - special version: 'factotum initial', in which the 'factotum' is the block with ornamental design with a hole within into which an initial is fit - historical expression: escarreur (French, 16th century) Mind that this term is language-dependent. We are discussing in English only because Elizabeth and Giles founded the BPS discussion list and it is run on JISC. Had this been a Dutch or Japanese list, the term would be in the other language. Best wishes, Ad. Op 01-10-2021 21:36 schreef Richard Lawrence <[log in to unmask]>: It is interesting to suppose that there may have originally been a common term for what we are discussing in the English language and that we should try to discover that term and use it. But is it not possible that there never was a common term and that printers referred to the objects by a variety of terms and descriptive phrases depending on their geographical location and where they had worked before and what the terminology was when they first met the object? In other words perhaps there never was a common word. So perhaps we should settle for words that describe what we mean to this audience. English is rife with words that are ambiguous out of context and may need to be qualified in specialist uses. And there is certainly evidence of different geographical areas using different terminology, an example being the current US English use of 'cut' to designate any relief block irrespective of whether it is made by a knife, an engraver, or indeed a photoetching process. Another example of divergence across the Atlantic is in the meaning of 'gripper' on a printing machine. Clear descriptions in clear English (even if they are not the 'correct' specialist term or have some historical precedence) have much to recommend them. They can be understood by an audience who may not have access to specialist dictionaries or arcane knowledge and so be more inclusive. Richard Lawrence [log in to unmask] Mobile (cell) 0781 2094781 -----Original Message----- From: Ad Stijnman <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Fri, 1 Oct 2021 19:54 Subject: Re: English term wanted I think a general issue of the BPS list is that it regularly discusses (historical) objects and their paraphernalia for which we don't know the actual terms, not in English, nor in any other language, not the modern phrase, nor the original one. The meanings of accepted terms can be fuzzy and their use based on personal interpretation. Otherwise it would be easy enough to craft and define (! thank you, Roger) new terminology and create consensus by raising enough hands. Best wishes, Ad. Op 01-10-2021 18:19 schreef Erin Blake <[log in to unmask]>: Members of this list are in an excellent position to introduce a English-language term. All we need is for at least three people to agree on a term, and use it in a publication, right? This is exactly how the word “boojum” became a standard term in fluid dynamics, or so I’ve been told by physicist friends. A major scholarly journal didn’t want to accept “boojum” in an article that N. David Mermin wrote about the phenomenon. The editors argued that you can’t just declare there’s a term for something if no one else has used it, so Mermin would have to use one of the various round-about descriptions of the phenomenon instead. Legend has it Mermin contacted colleagues around the world, convinced a few of them to use “boojum” in papers submitted to more lenient scientific journals, then successfully used those publications as supporting evidence in his battle. Possible candidates: “one-piece border block” (as Ad suggests) because we already talk about “border blocks” “factotum block” as the logical extension of the long-used printers’ term “factotum initial” (where “factotum” means “able to do [just about] anything”) I’ll be teaching “The History of Printed Book Illustration in the West” at Rare Book School this coming summer, so if list-members could come to a consensus on terminology before, say, May 2021, that would be great :) Best wishes, Erin. ______________________ Erin Blake, Ph.D. | Senior Cataloger | Folger Shakespeare Library | 201 E. Capitol St. SE, Washington, DC, 20003 | [log in to unmask] | www.folger.edu | Pronouns: she/her/hers From: Ad Stijnman <[log in to unmask]> Sent: October 1, 2021 10:56 AM To: Announcement list for BlocksPlatesStones <[log in to unmask]>; Erin Blake <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: English term wanted Thanks, Erin, I now remember the word 'factotum' indeed, but wasn't aware it was only used for the smaller border blocks for initials. Checking my dictionaries for the printing trade I find: factotum initial (English) = initiale encastrée (French) = Kassetteninitiale (German). This would be the combination of the surrounding block (= factotum) and the inserted initial. Perhaps 'one-piece border block' might be suited? Best wishes, Ad. Op 01-10-2021 16:20 schreef Erin Blake <[log in to unmask]>: I’ve also never come across a specific term in English. For me, it usually comes up when I want to distinguish the one-piece kind from the kind made up of four pieces (or eight, if it has corner blocks) so I’ll say “one-piece border frame” rather than “separate border blocks arranged to make a frame.” The advantage of mostly talking about them rather than writing about them is that I can then say “It’s like a factotum initial, but instead of a little space for a piece of type, there’s a big space for another block.” Cheers, Erin. ______________________ Erin Blake, Ph.D. | Senior Cataloger | Folger Shakespeare Library | 201 E. Capitol St. SE, Washington, DC, 20003 | [log in to unmask] | www.folger.edu | Pronouns: she/her/hers From: Announcement list for BlocksPlatesStones < [log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Elizabeth Savage Sent: October 1, 2021 10:10 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: English term wanted Ines, this is one English term we all might might spend a very long time searching for! I’ve seen 'passe-partout' used for (fairly small) woodblocks with a (fairly small) hole for type, for example to allow a serial number in moveable type or an initial. I don’t believe I've seen the term used for a larger border, with a larger hole. I’ve seen ‘frame’ used for a woodcut intended to surround another, and ‘border’ when a woodcut surrounds text. I don’t know if this is standard, though, and ‘frame’ in this context might imply the imitation of a physical frame. I don’t know if there is a specific term for the woodblock(s) used to print a border, or if there needs to be. Would a descriptive approach, something like ‘woodblock for a border’ or ‘woodblock for a frame’, be appropriate? -- All best Elizabeth On 1 Oct 2021, at 14:52, Ines Vodopivec <[log in to unmask]> wrote: I would be most interested in the final result of this debate. Being of Slavic origins I am searching for English terms very often... Best, Ines --- doc. dr. Ines Vodopivec 2021-10-01 15:48, je Ad Stijnman napisal Thanks, Armin, I think title-border / Titeleinfassung would be the term for a decorative border around the letterpress text of a booktitle; zie example. This would be the term used after printing, i.e. for the image as it eventually appears on paper. However, I'm looking for the name of the cut woodblock itself. Best wishes, Ad. Op 01-10-2021 15:03 schreef Armin Kunz <[log in to unmask]>: German book people usually use the term "Titeleinfassung" In English I would use "title-border" Greetings from NYC Armin From: Announcement list for BlocksPlatesStones < [log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Ad Stijnman Sent: Friday, October 1, 2021 8:38 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: English term wanted Dear All, Could anyone help me out, please? What would be the English term for what I call a 'border decoration block'? It concerns a 16th/17th-century decoratively cut woodblock with a hole in the middle into which fits another woodblock, the whole to be printed together; see examples attached. The 16th-century French term is escarreur. Any German term would also be appreciated. Best wishes, Ad Stijnman. 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