Keith,

Good points.

I think the issue is a tad bit easier to understand if we consider discounting the political, economic, and human costs of inaction in the manner of the theory of interest.

With Covid-19,the most significant impact, may occur in the next year or two, and some of it will occur in the next few weeks and months.

If, for example, donald trump acts boldly, the economic impacts will be virtually immediate and certain. Once he acts, he will set in motion market forces that will not easily be dampened. A deep economic downturn is virtually guaranteed, employees will be laid off, businesses will close. US airlines are already laying off employees, and that will get worse with any element of a bold containment strategy. Once that path is taken, the cascading effects are going to be bad.

If donald trump drags his feet, hoping for a naturally occurring end to the problem, that too will have fairly immediate, though less certain consequences. Either the virus will die off, or it won't, but we will probably know in a matter of weeks or months.

Now, as to climate change, you and I are in substantial agreement on what the most likely consequences will be. There will be substantial losses of habitat, many species will go extinct, famine will occur, human misery will spike, sea waters will rise... All of these things are terrible.

Some of this is clearly already happening, but most of it will occur at times uncertain, but most certainly the most dramatic consequences will occur decades from now. So the situation is a lot like an extended J. Wellington Wimpy hamburger transaction. Except that instead of the diner owner being asked to provide a hamburger today, for which Wimpy will gladly pay, without accrued interest, next Tuesday, Wimpy is trying to get a hamburger today, which he will willingly pay for, 3-5 decades down the road, without accrued interest. That is, unfortunately, a very good transaction for Wimpy, and a very poor transaction for the Diner owner. It is most certainly not a transaction most diner owners will be able to replicate repeatedly.

It is the disparity between immediate impact and cost and their perceived certainty, and the long term impact and cost, and the considerable uncertainty that makes it so difficult for policymakers, or even well-informed citizens, to make sound long term policy choices .

As a simple example, if, in a worst case, scenario, Covid-19 is the real deal, and a global pandemic occurs, and a significant portion of the world's population dies off, on the scale of the Plague, say 1/3rd of the earth's population is dead over the next 3-4 years, or even if the economy simply slows down considerably as a result of the implementation of Draconian containment measures, the environmental effects will actually be quite positive, and all the prognostications of environmental doom will likely be pushed back a decade or more.

Even a modest death rate of 5-20%, especially if it occurs primarily in high carbon use populations, would disappear the most dire consequences of climate change to manageable levels, and as a plus, instead of massive future deaths from preventable loss of habitat, which we both likely agree is something that might be better planned for than currently, we would have a far more effective outcome, and it would be blamed on natural, unavoidable events, not willful indifference.

While I generally eschew conspiracy theories, I am mindful of the fact that among the wealthy elites, a reduction in the human population, especially if not among themselves, of 95% is not necessarily an undesirable outcome.


Thomas Cox PhD RN
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On Thursday, March 5, 2020, 12:35:52 PM EST, Baker, Keith <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


Hi Thomas,


I'm an energy policy and climate change geek and just re-read your post mentally inserting climate change for coronavirus. 


Under the IPCC's '1.5C' report we have to get individual carbon emissions down to approx 0.7 tonnes per person by 2050 (more if we delay action further) to avoid catastrophic climate change (the average carbon footprint for a UK resident is ~2.4 tonnes) we have a very high certainty that without, now, enacting the sorts of changes that could equally be described as draconian (e.g. slashing not just flights but much personal travel where non-fossil fuel alternatives exist, radically changing our methods of production and distribution of energy, food, etc etc) we are looking at the deaths of vast numbers of humans and other species. The uncertainties are there but 20% of the global population wouldn't be an upper limit and the economic impact would be enormous.


And yet compare the responses....


Keith


     



From: email list for Radical Statistics <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Thomas Cox <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 05 March 2020 16:43
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Coronavirus vs. Influenza in England
 
Ah John, this issue re-emerges... I had half hoped it was in perpetual sleep mode.

I won't try to further explain the CDC's report. Tomorrow we will hopefully have a new weekly version, and we may have a better idea of the number of flu cases, hospitalizations, and deaths.

While I still believe that the CDC is one of the best sources of epidemiological data, I understand all too well how deeply the CDC has been impacted by the reckless indifference to scientific method of the current potus.

The problem from my perspective, is that if there is political influence being exerted it is most likely to be to minimize the threats of flu and most certainly Covid-19.

But, let's consider something that we have not addressed. The utility costs of efforts at containment.

We both agree that more than normal efforts need to be made to prevent Covid-19 from becoming a pandemic. I suspect we both also tend to think that that particular train has left the station.

But SHOULD we engage in "radical" efforts to stem the spread? Here, we need to consider at least actual economic costs, as opposed to mere academic reputation costs. There are also human suffering costs - but I don't know how to qualify them, and both action, and inaction will have different sorts of human suffering costs.

The Chinese appear to have successfully stemmed the development of new cases. Personally, I have some doubts that they have been as successful as the data indicates. But the costs of their success have been extremely high. But China is a centrally organized economy. Quarantining millions of people, closing factories, restricting travel, were relatively easy compared to implementing the same approaches in the USA. The UK, on the other hand, has already achieved considerable isolation, as a result of the withdrawal from the EU.

If donald trump were to follow the path of President Xi in China, and try to restrict domestic travel, close factories, close schools he will face a huge cost politically and huge resistance. First, because such government intrusion into the private choices of American citizens is anathema to his own political party and fan base. Second, because the impact on the economy would be quite severe, potentially leading to a deep recession, collapsing the DJIA/NASDAQ stock markets, and in a short 8 months, he would be facing the same economic collapse as GWB at the end of his 8 year reign of terror and poor economic policy.

Then too, and I suspect of far more concern to this particular narcissistic potus, he has a very great personal stake in the matter. If, as has been done in China, travel restrictions, cancellations of large meetings of people, and extensive quarantines are implemented, his own business interests will suffer dramatically. Since, much like Ponzi schemer Bernard Madoff, trump's personal fortune (?) is largely debt and investor financed, any dramatic reduction in revenues to Trump Inc will impact both his actual wealth (?), and perceived business acumen. A personal/business bankruptcy would have huge economic and political costs.

Now, given that widespread quarantines, business shutdowns, increasing unemployment, possible economic collapse, stock market price declines, all of which will operate synergistically, on a downward spiral will have extremely grave consequences throughout the world, the question is not whether the final lethality rate, calculated decades from now, will be 0.2% or 20%, but can we statisticians help policymakers make the right call, right now?

The problem for policymakers is not whether there are 310,000 hospitalizations, or 172,000 hospitalizations, or whether the relative lethality rate compared to the flu, is 0.2% or 20%, but do we implement Draconian measures with grave economic consequences when it may be shown to have been unnecessary 20 years from now, or do we fail to implement Draconian measures now, risking even graver consequences that will also only be known with certainty 20 years from now?

Worse still, even if the rapid implementation of Draconian measures seems like the best choice now, there is the added difficulty that it could well be that the Draconian measures could conceivably exacerbate the situation.

To the degree that we indulge in largely academic argument about sources of data and the accuracy of estimates, we encourage troglodytes like donald trump, to ignore scientific data completely on the basis that there is significant disagreement among informed people. Here I consider donald trump's flat out denial of anthropogenic climate change, despite overwhelming consensus in the scientific community.

So, in particular, I tend to believe that statisticians who are proactive, skeptical about government statistician's performance, and who are willing to sound alarms are crucial at this moment.

In the US, it will clearly be difficult to get donald trump to implement Draconian measures. He will absolutely resist making any decision that will have certain known consequences that would lead to his exit from the white house, in favor of dragging his feet, and betting on the measures not being necessary. Donald trump has always been willing to take risks with other people's wealth, and well being. So, it will take an enormous amount of influence to get him to make the right choice, whatever that choice might actually be.

Here, I am always guided by Woody Allen's dictum:

“More than any other time in history, mankind faces a crossroads. One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other, to total extinction. Let us pray we have the wisdom to choose correctly.”


Thomas Cox PhD RN
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On Thursday, March 5, 2020, 08:33:16 AM EST, John Whittington <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


*** I just found this message from me lurking in my 'pending' folder -which for some reason did not get sent yesterday! ...


At 03:53 04/03/2020, Thomas Cox wrote:
What is far from clear for me iswhere your numbers come from?

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/images/about/burden/printable-tables2-17-18.pptx

We both seem to agree thatgreater efforts need to be made for Covid-19 than for the flu, and thatwe are dealing with imperfect information.

We are certainly dealing with very imperfect information.  I am alsovery surprised by the lack of clarity in what your CDC are publishingabout 'flu. I agree that, until we understand a lot more, we need to makegreater efforts in relation to Covid19 than we have been/are expending inrelation to influenza.

I agree that the figure of 52.7hospitalizations per 100,000 seems, at first glance, to contradict thestatement that there have been 310,000 hospitalizations. But, if you divedeeper you will notice that that rate appears to be based on a subset ofthe population, that is part of a specific surveillance program, ofselect counties, and specific strains of the flu.

Exactly - which is why, as I said, I have no idea of where the"310,000 hospitalisations" came from, since, as you say, itclearly does not come from (and would not be expected to come from) theFluServ-NET figure of 52.7 per 100,000 - which appears to be the onlydata relating to hospitalisations which exists in the CDC's weeklyreport.  As I said, it is really fairly shocking that they shouldmention in the summary a figure (310,000) which relates to nothingpresented in the report.  It is particularly misleading that one ofthe first things one sees in the document entitled "

Weekly U.S. Influenza Surveillance Report" (even

before one gets to the "310,000 figure) is ....

Emacs!

... since, as you say, despite it being a report about "US InfluenzaSurveillance", that figure does not appear to relate to the USpopulation.

You have not commented on the figures relating to the number of cases of'flu in the US (i.e. the denominator for the 'lethality'estimation).  Again, the 32,000,000 figure only appears in thesummary of the CDC's weekly report, without any mention or explanation ofthat figure in the body of the report.  However, as I said, if onebelieves (as you appear to) that this figure is the estimate of thenumber of cases of 'true influenza' (i.e. cases which would belaboratory-confirmed, if they were all tested) that implies that therehas been an incredibly large number of cases of"Influenza-like-illnesses" (affecting something likle half ofthe US population) during the 2019/2020 'flu season to date.

How about this - likely bothbeing at least closet positivists, let's both make a prediction aboutrelative lethality of Covid-19 vs influenza in the US, and in 6 months wecan look back, assess the data, and arrive at a determination of whoearns bragging rights. I am comfortable predicting a relative lethalitycompared to the flu of at least 4 - 10. Are you comfortable predicting arelative lethality of no greater than 0.2 - 1.0 compared to the flu? ...

Of course not, and nor should you be.  My point remains that we donot currently have enough understanding or data to make any sensiblepredictions, and that nothing is gained by guessing.  All we can do(as you are doing) is to consider, and act upon, something approaching'worst case scenarios' and then wait until we have a much clearer idea ofthe true situation (although I'm far from sure that we'll necessarilyhave that in as little as 6 months  from now).


Kind Regards,

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