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Dear all, This is an interesting debate on a complex topic, which firstly I would like to slightly disentangle from the workshop itself - hence the subject change. I do this as some of the comments could be interpreted as directed specifically at the workshop organisers, which I do not feel is appropriate here without knowledge of the full facts. Speaking as someone who helps to arrange these workshops as well as contributing to some, the “load” on speakers is high - this year CCP4 are contributing to and running around 8 workshops - each of these last about a week, and typically involve a dozen or so tutors. They are typically oversubscribed, and are geographically spread for the benefit of the students - however this geographic spread is not represented in the speakers, so it is sometimes hard to get tutors to travel. Regarding awareness of gender balances, I would say that this is close to the minds of everyone who I have talked to about organising workshops, and without making any judgements about the correctness or otherwise of positive bias, coming up with a balanced list of speakers - according to any metric - is hard. Doing this within budget, and within the capabilities of the speakers themselves who are (as was pointed out earlier) typically doing this for altruistic reasons only makes this harder. In my experience though this does not stop people from trying, and I am sure we will all continue to try. A final comment though is we should be aiming for inclusivity and equality within the community and bb - across age, experience, gender, background etc - and I do take offence to the idea that reading a specific book is considered a precondition for commenting on a topic. I would certainly endorse a proposal that “this topic has been discussed well in this book” as a suggestion. Teaching people is ultimately what this thread is all about! Humbly written as a middle aged white guy :-) All the best, Graeme On 6 Feb 2020, at 01:19, Susan Lea <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: Perhaps some of the respondents to this question should real Angela Saini’s Inferior before commenting in public Susan Sent from my iPhone On 5 Feb 2020, at 19:18, Robert Nicholls <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: As a Caucasian male I hesitate to post; I know that there are a lot of people who are sensitive to this subject, so feel that I'm treading on eggshells in responding... Nevertheless I feel obliged to respond, having a certain amount of insight into the topic in the context of these workshops. Personally I don't find posts such as this - which simply incite (positive) discrimination - to be very constructive. From speaking to organisers and being involved in committees over numerous years I know that gender bias is always very much at the forefront of the organisers' minds when deciding whom to invite. Especially where funding requirements and committees are involved, the issue of gender bias is always raised with a heavy hand. Consequently, in modern times whenever there is a gender bias in our field it is not a result of naivety or discriminative cliqueness, but rather necessity due to the availability of appropriate tutors (as correctly indicated by Rasmus). And as Andrew points out, organising these workshops takes a lot of effort, and as such it is inappropriate to treat the organisers with undue disrespect. Ultimately, the objective is to teach the topics intended to be covered in the workshop. For sure, there are a number of very good females who are appropriate for teaching on these courses, despite being in the relative minority. I know a number of the females who are very able to tutor on such courses, and by personal communication I also know why some of them might not be able to attend this particular one this year. As Eleanor has pointed out, sometimes life gets in the way. There is a very good gender balance of participants in these workshops, as is indicative of the demographic of practicing structural biologists wishing to utilise these software tools. But clearly the gender balance of tutors is heavily in favour of males - this represents the difference in gender ratios of people engaging with practical structural biology versus computational methods development. I understand the argument that it is good for female tutors to be present as role models in such workshops, but it is worth noting that the people attending these workshops do not intend to become methods developers - they simply want to know how to best use the tools available. Consequently there is a qualitative difference between tutors and participants. Therefore, there is limited capability for the participants to see the tutors as role models in this context. I feel that the junior vs senior argument isn't at all relevant. More senior developers will of course be generally preferred - it is necessary for individuals with sufficient experience to be available to help in these workshops (again as indicated by Rasmus). But I have seen many junior software developers sent to teach at CCP4 workshops (irrespective of gender). Indeed, it is necessary for junior developers to gain such experience in order to grow. This is very necessary in order to meet the demands of an expanding and evolving community. From a purely statistical point of view it seems reasonable to me for the gender bias of tutors in such workshops to realistically reflect the demographic of crystallographic software developers. Consequently, I feel that the real problem lies in the proportion of females who want to become methods developers. My personal experience is that there is absolutely no discrimination whatsoever when interviewing or encouraging potential scientists to enter the field. Perhaps I have been fortunate enough to not be exposed to an environment where there is any such discrimination. For me, the real problem lies in the proportion of females who are interested in a career in computational methods development; I believe this issue stems back to the proportion of females who choose theoretical/computational degrees at undergraduate level. I do not know how to encourage more females to engage with the field at earlier stages in their career - perhaps this is a problem for those teaching in universities to attempt to address. Fortunately I have seen a rise in the number of females interested in computational methods development in recent years (particularly in bioinformatics), which is very encouraging - perhaps this represents changing times... Ultimately, positive discrimination is nevertheless discrimination. And as such is unethical, and should not be supported by a conscientious scientific community. I would prefer to see a system whereby gender, race and creed are not seen as a factor when deciding who should be chosen for a particular role. Personal merit should be the only consideration. If this results in a gender bias then the problem should be addressed at the source, not downstream. A very vague scientific analogy would be: attempting to correct for an experimental error, versus trying to improve the experiment so that the error is not such an issue. I feel that this is a very prevalent problem in our community at present. I quote from a relevant post advertisement: "Female scientists are particularly encouraged to apply". I feel that this additional qualification should be irrelevant. Furthermore I feel that, if anything, such clarifications only serve to exacerbate sexual discrimination - this demeans the commendable efforts that have been made over the past century to ensure unconditional equality amongst humanity, let alone within science. Until there is a natural balance of individuals wishing to enter computational methods development, it seems that at present we as a community have to choose between one evil or another: accepting that there will be a gender imbalance, versus enforcing an unnatural positive discrimination in order to balance the gender ratio. Tim suggests that females capable and willing to teach in such workshops should contact CCP4 in order to offer their services. No doubt such offers would be gladly appreciated, and might avoid such public challenges being made in future. It should be noted that many of the tutors who agree to attending these workshops do so for reasonably altruistic purposes, often in detriment to their work-life balance. With best regards, Rob Dr Rob Nicholls Senior Investigator Scientist MRC Laboratory of Molecular Biology Francis Crick Avenue Cambridge Biomedical Campus Cambridge CB2 0QH On 5 Feb 2020, at 21:30, Crissy Lynette Tarver <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: A similar workshop is taught annually here at SSRL. I was a tutor for the hands-on workshop in 2019, and I found an even gender distribution among the speakers/tutors. Even though not all of the females were developers of crystallographic software, they are expert users and instructors. Here is a link to the online program for anyone interested: https://www-ssrl.slac.stanford.edu/rapidata/rapidata-2019/schedule.html Crissy L Tarver Postdoctoral Researcher Department of Structural Biology Stanford University School of Medicine ________________________________ From: CCP4 bulletin board <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> on behalf of Eleanor Dodson <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> Sent: Wednesday, February 5, 2020 12:26:53 PM To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] Macromolecular Crystallography workshop in South America 2020 Hmmm - interesting discussion but no-one has stated the obvious. There were at least fifteen years of my life (ang Guy's) when we were just TOO busy to contemplate travelling so far, even if invited. Mixing family responsibilities with any effective working meant we did not stray far away from home. That must rule out many younger people - we should all be grateful for those who are willing and able to teach. I hope the organisers recruit as many local tutors as they can, and that there is no "gender bias" there. Good luck to everyone involved. Eleanor On Wed, 5 Feb 2020 at 20:04, Newman, Janet (Manufacturing, Parkville) <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: Hi all, Interesting discussion, and personally, I think Rasmus has hit the nail on the head. Here is a challenge to the CCP4bb - can we make a list 10 female developers of crystallographic software who would be appropriate invitees as instructors to this course? (I can only think of 4) Cheers, Janet Janet Newman Principal Scientist / Director, Collaborative Crystallisation Centre (C3) CSIRO Material Science and Engineering 343 Royal Parade Parkville. VIC. 3052 Australia Tel +613 9662 7326 Email [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> ________________________________ From: CCP4 bulletin board <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> on behalf of Rasmus Fogh <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> Sent: Thursday, February 6, 2020 6:26 AM To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] Macromolecular Crystallography workshop in South America 2020 Hi, People may have missed that this particular meeting is not about presenting ideas or research results. The meeting is billed as a "Hands-on workshop with lectures, practical tutorials and plenty of time for problems-solving with X-ray diffraction data", for people who are already beyond the basics and actively doing crystallography. Participants are encouraged to come with their own, likely quite difficult, data, and the tutors are expected to not only present strategies and programs for data processing, refinement and model building at master level, but provide in-depth individual explanations, deal with quirks of the various programs, and do immediate problem solving on projects they have never seen before. This requires tutors with both a detailed understanding of the software and extensive experience in using it, and the tutors on the speaker list are generally top developers from the groups that actually develop the software. Collectively the tutors have to cover all aspects of the field. A further limit is that such workshops (though not this particular one) are often held at synchrotrons, which adds the requirement of setting up and running actual experiments for people, without prior knowledge of their projects. Understandably the limited group of people who have developed experience in this kind of activity tend to reappear at workshop after workshop. Crystallography as a discipline is certainly full of highly qualified women, but the scope for asking "more junior women" to teach these particular workshops - or in general for broadening the base of tutors - is limited by the fact that the pool of people with the qualifications and experience to teach such courses at a high level is truly tiny. Yours, Rasmus Fogh On 05/02/2020 18:21, Diana Tomchick wrote: > Then ask more “junior women.” This isn’t rocket science, after alll. > > Diana > > ****************************** > Diana R. Tomchick > Department of Biophysics, Rm. ND10.214A > University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center > 5323 Harry Hines Blvd. > Dallas, TX 75061 USA > 214-645-6383 (office) > >> On Feb 5, 2020, at 12:09 PM, Goldman, Adrian >> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: >> >> >> >> EXTERNAL MAIL >> >> Phoebe and all, >> >> What I heard recently (I have no idea whether it applies in this >> particular case…) is that organisers of conferences/meetings often >> have considerable difficulty getting women speakers in the first place >> - apparently 85% of the XYs asked say “yes” and only 50% (less?) of >> the XXs. Presumably not to GRCs, or to keynote a major international >> symposium - but ? Precisely for this kind of event. I was told this is >> because the senior women get asked more often, as there are (qv) fewer >> of them, and so there is meeting-attendance-burnout. >> >> Adrian >> >>> On 5 Feb 2020, at 18:00, Phoebe A. Rice <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> >>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: >>> >>> While there is some truth to that argument, the problem is that it is >>> harder to achieve an international reputation in the first place >>> while being routinely overlooked. >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>> Phoebe A. Rice >>> Dept. of Biochem & Mol. Biol. and >>> Committee on Microbiology >>> https://voices.uchicago.edu/phoebericelab/ >>> *From:*CCP4 bulletin board <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> >>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> on behalf of Andrew Leslie >>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> >>> *Reply-To:*Andrew Leslie <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> >>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> >>> *Date:*Wednesday, February 5, 2020 at 11:56 AM >>> *To:*"[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>" >>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> >>> *Subject:*Re: [ccp4bb] Macromolecular Crystallography workshop in >>> South America 2020 >>> Dear All, >>> In fairness to the organisers, I would like to point >>> out that there is nothing that is “lazy” about organising these >>> workshops. It involves a considerable effort both in arranging the >>> course, the venue and especially in attracting funds to support the >>> workshop (it is important to note that CCP4 does not supply all the >>> funds). In addition, it is unfair to single out this particular >>> workshop for criticism, as I believe it has long been the case that >>> these workshops have not had a good gender balance in terms of the >>> tutors. It is also important to realise that the gender imbalance >>> does NOT extend to choice of the students, where as far as I am aware >>> the gender balance is always very good. >>> One difficulty the organisers face is that funding will typically >>> depend on having tutors with an international reputation in the areas >>> in which they are teaching, ideally having been involved in >>> developing the software that is being used. Unfortunately, this >>> inevitably leads to gender bias. >>> While I would agree that this is an issue that is worthy of being >>> raised, and I feel sure that this point will be taken on board by >>> future organisers, it is also important to realise the practical >>> difficulties that organisers face and the considerable effort that is >>> involved in running these workshops. >>> Regards, >>> Andrew Leslie >>>> On 5 Feb 2020, at 00:30, Alejandro Buschiazzo <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> >>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: >>>> Dear colleagues, >>>> >>>> We are pleased to announce the 8^th South American Macromolecular >>>> Crystallography School: >>>> >>>> *Macromolecular Crystallography School 2020 * >>>> *"Structural Biology to enhance high impact research in health and >>>> disease”* >>>> To be held at the Institut Pasteur de Montevideo (Uruguay) >>>> - September 9-19, 2020 >>>> >>>> *http://pasteur.uy/novedades/mx2020/* >>>> >>>> *The application deadline is July 9, 2020. *For further inquiries : >>>> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> >>>> Main Topics: >>>>> >>>>> ·data processing; >>>>> >>>>> ·phasing and structure determination; >>>>> >>>>> ·model refinement and validation; >>>>> >>>>> ·introduction to crystallography + cryo-electron microscopy integration >>>>> >>>> >>>> Confirmed speakers and tutors (so far... a few more will join the >>>> crew): >>>> >>>> Alejandro Buschiazzo (InstitutPasteurdeMontevideo, Uruguay) >>>> Paul Emsley (Laboratory of Molecular Biology MRC, Cambridge, UK) >>>> Rafael Junqueira Borges (Instituto de Biociências UNESP, Botucatu, >>>> Brazil) >>>> Ronan Keegan (STFC Rutherford Appleton Lab - CCP4, Didcot, UK) >>>> Eugene Krissinel (STFC Rutherford Appleton Lab - CCP4, Didcot, UK) >>>> Joāo Muniz (Instituto deFisica de São Carlos, Brazil) >>>> Garib Murshudov (Laboratory of Molecular Biology MRC, Cambridge, UK) >>>> Colin Palmer (STFC Rutherford Appleton Lab - CCP-EM, Didcot, UK) >>>> James Parkhurst (Diamond Light Source, Didcot, UK) >>>> Randy Read (University of Cambridge, UK) >>>> Kyle Stevenson (STFC Rutherford Appleton Lab - CCP4, Didcot, UK) >>>> Clemens Vonrhein (Global Phasing Ltd, Cambridge, UK) >>>> >>>> *Please find the application form and further contact information at >>>> http://pasteur.uy/novedades/mx2020/* >>>> (this www site will be updated regularly, so stay tuned!) >>>> >>>> This Workshop is supported by the Collaborative Computational >>>> Project Nº4 (CCP4, UK) & Science and Technology Facilities Council >>>> (UK); the Centro de Biologia Estructural del Mercosur (CeBEM); and >>>> the Programa Iberoamericano de Ciencia y Tecnologia para el >>>> Desarrollo (CYTED) through de MICROBES consortium. >>>> >>>> Organizers: >>>> Alejandro Buschiazzo, PhD. Institut Pasteur de Montevideo, Uruguay >>>> Kyle Stevenson, DPhil. CCP4, STFC Rutherford Appleton Laboratory, >>>> United Kingdom >>>> Richard Garratt, PhD. Instituto de Fisica de Sao Carlos, USP, Brazil >>>> >>>> Applicants: >>>> 25 students will be selected, prioritizing advanced PhD, postdocs >>>> and young researchers. The Course will provide financial support >>>> covering registration fees, and for the case of those students >>>> coming from abroad, all local expenses (lodging, per diem and local >>>> transportation). Look in the www site for details on application >>>> procedures. >>>> >>>> *The application deadline is July 9, 2020.* >>>> >>>> Please address further inquiries to: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> >>>> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> >>>> >>>> Looking forward to hosting you in Montevideo! >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: >>>> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=CCP4BB&A=1 >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: >>> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=CCP4BB&A=1 >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: >>> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=CCP4BB&A=1 >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: >> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=CCP4BB&A=1 >> >> CAUTION: This email originated from outside UTSW. Please be cautious >> of links or attachments, and validate the sender's email address >> before replying. >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > UTSouthwestern > > Medical Center > > The future of medicine, today. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: > https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=CCP4BB&A=1 > -- Rasmus H. 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