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That's it I think https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02144-z Brigitte ________________________________ From: Science, images and representations <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of martin kemp <[log in to unmask]> Sent: 24 January 2020 11:44 To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Turbulence and Van Gogh David, I wrote about Leonardo's experimental tank for studying water in Nature last year. I can find the ref. if needed. He was working within the framework of impetus dynamics, very different from Newton. M On 24 Jan 2020, at 6:48 am, David Steinman <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: As someone who studies and visualizes turbulent (well, turbulent-like) flow phenomena on a daily basis, I completely agree with your (and Martin’s) points. But at the same time, there is a tendency, certainly in the popular press/culture, to mythologize genius (or madness ;-), which in this case would be the idea that van Gogh could somehow “see” or intuit the *precise* nature of a fundamental physical principle decades before it was understood. The -5/3 power law is not like, say, the Golden ratio. I can imagine that if you asked someone to draw a “pleasing” rectangle there’s a good chance they’d come close to a Golden rectangle without knowing (or needing to know) why. On the other hand, if you asked a trained fluid mechanician to crudely sketch an eddy cascade that specifically obeys the -5/3 power law, chances are it won’t come close. Now, I don’t know the author of the paper I posted (also a Canadian, but a 3-hour flight away ;-) or what prompted him to write it, but I suppose that if I were at a dinner party and told, wide-eyed, that van Gogh could somehow “see" Kolmogorov’s -5/3 power law decades before it was discovered, when I know this requires fairly good analytical skills to tease out of visualizations or data, I too might be tempted to question it. Personally, I remain drawn (haha) to Leonardo’s flow visualizations, and still marvel at how he got them so damned right, even though I know there are probably little devils hiding in the details. /das. On Jan 23, 2020, at 2:47 PM, Yogesh Goyal <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: As a scientist myself having studied fluid mechanics during undergraduate and graduate studies, I do not understand the "need" to perform this scientific study, which, as Martin and others pointed out, ignores not only the history and the context, and the very art itself. Agree with Brigitte/David on the wonder of Van Gogh and turbulence :) On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 6:36 AM Brigitte Nerlich <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: Yep! I think David is right to stress: “it doesn’t diminish my sense of wonder about either Van Gogh or turbulence” – BOTH! Brigitte From: Science, images and representations <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> On Behalf Of martin kemp Sent: 23 January 2020 11:30 To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Turbulence and Van Gogh David, Typical of contemporary scientists' misapplication of their modern criteria to historic art without doing the slightest historical due diligence (both the original paper and this one). I get this all the time with Leonardo. very best, Martin On 22 Jan 2020, at 7:01 pm, David Steinman <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: My postdoc spotted this paper, and I thought you might “enjoy" as an interesting response to what was clearly perceived as an over-interpretation of the science in art and of the scientific intuition of artists. I wonder what he’d make of Hokusai (or, in Pythonese, "Lucky I didn't say anything about the dirty knife.” :-) As for me, it doesn’t diminish my sense of wonder about either Van Gogh or turbulence, and it puts me in mind of one of my favourite (ironic) quotes: "Pedagogical simplicity is inevitably achieved at some cost of verisimilitude.” [Holmes, in Tauber’s “Beautiful Experiments in the Life Sciences”] /das. ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the SCIREPS list, click the following link: https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=SCIREPS&A=1 <The midrange wavenumber spectrum of van Gogh s Starry Night does not obey a turbulent inertial range scaling law.pdf> Martin Kemp [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> Emeritus Professor of the History of Art Trinity College, Broad Street, Oxford, OX1 3BH This message and its contents is intended only for the designated recipient(s) and should not be passed on without permission new book, with Margaret Dalivalle and Robert Simon, Leonardo's Salvator Mundi and the Collecting of Leonardo in the Stuart Courts, Oxford University Press. EXHIBITION ON SCREEN film Leonardo: The Works in cinemas worldwide from 29th October 2019 A CONCERT AND CD FOR LEONARDO 500 http://leonardo.ifagiolini.com/ LEONARDO DA VINCI’S CODEX LEICESTER. A NEW EDITION, with Domenico Laurenza, 4 vols., Oxford University Press LEONARDO BY LEONARDO. Callaway Arts and Media LIVING WITH LEONARDO. Fifty Years of Sanity and Insanity in the Art World and Beyond, Thames & Hudson LEONARDO DA VINCI. THE 100 MILESTONES. Sterling Books LEONARD DE VINCI (French), Citadelles THE LIFE OF LEONARDO DA VINCI by GIORGIO VASARI. Thames and Hudson ________________________________ To unsubscribe from the SCIREPS list, click the following link: https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=SCIREPS&A=1 This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information. If you have received this message in error, please contact the sender and delete the email and attachment. Any views or opinions expressed by the author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the University of Nottingham. Email communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored where permitted by law. ________________________________ To unsubscribe from the SCIREPS list, click the following link: https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=SCIREPS&A=1 -- Yogesh Goyal, PhD Schmidt Science Fellow | Personal website<https://systomicbiology.wordpress.com/> ________________________________ To unsubscribe from the SCIREPS list, click the following link: https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=SCIREPS&A=1 ________________________________ To unsubscribe from the SCIREPS list, click the following link: https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=SCIREPS&A=1 Martin Kemp [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> Emeritus Professor of the History of Art Trinity College, Broad Street, Oxford, OX1 3BH This message and its contents is intended only for the designated recipient(s) and should not be passed on without permission new book, with Margaret Dalivalle and Robert Simon, Leonardo's Salvator Mundi and the Collecting of Leonardo in the Stuart Courts, Oxford University Press. EXHIBITION ON SCREEN film Leonardo: The Works in cinemas worldwide from 29th October 2019 A CONCERT AND CD FOR LEONARDO 500 http://leonardo.ifagiolini.com/ LEONARDO DA VINCI’S CODEX LEICESTER. A NEW EDITION, with Domenico Laurenza, 4 vols., Oxford University Press LEONARDO BY LEONARDO. Callaway Arts and Media LIVING WITH LEONARDO. Fifty Years of Sanity and Insanity in the Art World and Beyond, Thames & Hudson LEONARDO DA VINCI. THE 100 MILESTONES. Sterling Books LEONARD DE VINCI (French), Citadelles THE LIFE OF LEONARDO DA VINCI by GIORGIO VASARI. Thames and Hudson For attribution and all professional matters see the "Rules of Engagement" on my website (below). For all correspondence re. writing, speaking etc. contact: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>, copying to [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> website: http://www.martinjkemp.com BLOG: http://martinkempsthisandthat.blogspot.com/ ________________________________ To unsubscribe from the SCIREPS list, click the following link: https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=SCIREPS&A=1 This message and any attachment are intended solely for the addressee and may contain confidential information. If you have received this message in error, please contact the sender and delete the email and attachment. Any views or opinions expressed by the author of this email do not necessarily reflect the views of the University of Nottingham. Email communications with the University of Nottingham may be monitored where permitted by law. ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the SCIREPS list, click the following link: https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=SCIREPS&A=1