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Dr Louise Hampson
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The Centre for the Study of Christianity and Culture
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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and cultureDoes anyone know of any good reads that might address The Virgin, her girdle and St. Thomas's doubt as they link symbolically to Lady Bertilak, her green girdle and Sir Gawain's doubt?Richard J Legault********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religionmedieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religionThe details about Mary's girdle and St Thomas are outlined in
There is a stained glass window showing the incident in the Church of the Assumption of St Mary the Virgin, Beckley, Oxfordshire. (Attached, if the attachment works)
Further details about the window on
Best wishes.
From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Laura Jacobus <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 10 January 2020 10:50
To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [M-R] dormition, assumption, and Marian relicsmedieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religionFascinating textile and discussion of it! Getting back to the relics issue, in Italy the relic of the girdle held at Prato (and maybe others elsewhere) was firmly linked to the Assumption in images which showed her taking off her girdle and dropping it from the sky to be caught by St. Thomas (presumably because he's the doubting one and hence needed the girdle as proof that he wasn't having a vision?). I assume there are various textual sources, but other will know them.
Images are able to skate over the ambiguities of the theology. The majority of Italian Marian series that I'm aware of hedge their bets by showing separate scenes of both the Dormition and the Assumption. The former might be literally a 'sleeping' Virgin, from the Eastern title, but is actually shown a dead one since Christ is shown collecting her soul and taking it to Heaven. The Assumption shows her as re-animated, as she's always very actively participating in her elevation by angels, and is never (as far as I'm aware) shown as a levitating corpse/sleeper.
all best
LauraDr. Laura JacobusBirkbeck, University of London
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religionDear Brenda,Glad to see that someone still knows her grammar! Similar issue with 'contemplate' vs. 'meditate'.MargaretPS I could not see how to reply to you directly, only the list. Listowners, wasn´t there a time when one could cut and paste the email of the sender from a message?
From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Ms B M Cook <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, January 9, 2020 2:48 PM
To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [M-R] dormitionCAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religionSurely anyone who speaks of the “Ascension” of Mary is falling into a major theological (and grammatical!!) error?Christ ascended because he is God and does so of his own power (even if one says that God raised Christ one is saying the same thing because Christ IS God). Ascension is an active verb.Mary is assumed which is passive because she is (only!!) human and is taken up by the power of God not of her own power. Assumption is a passive verb.Brenda M CFrom: [log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank"> James BugslagSent: Thursday, January 09, 2020 6:10 PMTo: [log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank"> [log in to unmask]Subject: Re: [M-R] dormitionmedieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and cultureThere is a fairly recent theory that "Ascension" scenes such as Kurt pointed out in the Rabbula Gospels actually represent Mary's "Ascension". See Ally Kateusz, “Ascension of Christ or Ascension of Mary? Reconsidering a Popular Early Iconography,” Journal of Early Christian Studies, 23, no. 2 (Summer 2015), 273-303. I must admit that I was skeptical of this theory, but it would certainly seem to fit with the inscription on the Sens textile that Genevra alerted us to.
Jim
From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Kurt Sherry <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: January 9, 2020 11:08:01 AM
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Subject: Re: [M-R] dormitionmedieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and cultureHow do you read the Latin? Something along the lines of the crossing over of Mary the Mother of the Lord with the Apostles? I confess that my Latin was never very good and I seldom use it.Looking at the textile itself, certain stylistic elements (forgive me, I know very little about textiles, so I probably don't have the proper technical terms) are reminiscent of Byzantine-style vestments, e.g., the roundels of icons set off from one another by ribbon-like bands that have smaller icons (I see an angel, for example) or crosses where the bands meet. The scene itself reminiscent of the standard Byzantine depiction of the Ascension (and since Mary's breasts are so evident, I thought of the Rabbula Gospels) rather than what became the norm for the iconography of the Dormition.A modern vestment maker to look at to see the kind of styling I mean is Riza from Australia.********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religionmedieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion
I have been following this thread with interest, so thanks to you all. It helps to explain what is going on with an eighth-century textile in Sens that has attracted less attention than (it seems to me) it should. It is inscribed (woven into the fabric and difficult to read) COM TRANSIS SET MARIA MATER DOMINO DE APOSTOLIS. I would love to see your thoughts about it.
<http://www.kornbluthphoto.com/SensAssumption.html>
best,
Genevra
On 1/9/2020 4:51 AM, André-Yves Bourgès wrote:
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and cultureDear list-members
Besides Assumptio and Dormitio, there has been another word (Depositio) which is found before 597 in kalendar of Autun (XV Kal. feb. Depositio sanctae Mariae). I have a quick look at the works of Gregory of Tours : irreplaceable Greg, with whom we are able to find almost everything regarding the time he was living ! After he told the story how the corpse of Mary has been elevated on a cloud in Paradise where the Virgin has recovered her soul (resumpta anima)*, he confirmed that in his time (end of VIth century), the Marian Feast was celebrated mid-january (Hujus festivitas sacra mediante mense undecimo celebratur) in accordance to the date given in the Autun kalendar (the same date is also found in previous kalendars of Arles, Lyon, Auxerre).
ANDRE YVES BOURGES
* Diluculo autem levaverunt apostoli cum lectulo corpus ejus, posueruntque illud in monumento, et custodiebant ipsum, adventum Domini praestolantes. Et ecce iterum adstitit eis Dominus , susceptumque corpus sanctum in nube deferri jussit in paradisum : ubi nunc, resumpta anima, cum electis ejus exsultans, aeternitatis bonis, nullo occasuris fine, perfruitur.
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