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I’m enjoying and learning from this discussion as always with this list.

 

As a kidney patient, I’m grateful for guidelines (and consensus statements etc). I use them to ensure I’m getting the best possible care according to the best possible evidence (even when that evidence is low grade or just best practice), and also to hold providers to account (if necessary).

 

However, the outcomes, the impact of guidelines on my health are ultimately probably beyond the HCP’s control and influenced by many other factors than guidelines. For example, medication adherence in BP management or post transplant, or genetic factors, or where someone lives, access to therapies etc.

 

Guidelines are a component of the process of improving a person’s health outcomes and it might be better to focus energy on improving the guideline development and implementation processes, rather than agonising whether they are effective or not. More PPI in the development, faster implementation and lay summaries that patients can understand and apply as they self-manage their own care.

 

Best wishes

Tess

 

 

Tess Harris

CEO, PKD Charity

pkdcharity.org.uk

E:[log in to unmask]

Dir: +44 20 7387 0543

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The Polycystic Kidney Disease Charity is a registered charity in England and Wales (1160970) and Scotland (SC047730).

 

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From: Evidence based health (EBH) <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Juan Gérvas
Sent: 22 September 2019 10:29
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: (External Email) Re: Without evidence of the impact of EBM (health outcomes)

 

-again, and again

-better "translation" but...what is the impact on patients' health?

Background: More than 50,000 randomized controlled trials and 8000 systematic reviews are anticipated to be published annually in the coming years. This huge volume of published findings makes it challenging for health care delivery systems to review new evidence, prioritize health care practices that warrant implementation, and implement best practices.

Objective: The objective of this study was to describe the Kaiser Permanente Southern California E-SCOPE (Evidence Scanning for Clinical, Operational, and Practice Efficiencies) program, a systematic method to accelerate the implementation of evidence-based practices in clinical care settings.

Methods: E-SCOPE uses a strategic evidence search algorithm to conduct proactive literature searches to identify high-quality studies of interventions that yield improved health outcomes, quality and/or efficiency of care delivery, or cost savings. Each quarterly search yields 500–1000 abstracts; about 5%–10% of studies are selected each quarter for consideration for implementation. These studies are presented to clinical and operational leaders and other stakeholders to make the final determination regarding the implementation of the practice; E-SCOPE staff work closely with stakeholders to develop an implementation plan, identify practice owners, and ensure sustainability.

Results: The time from study publication to implementation using the E-SCOPE process ranges from 4 to 36 months, with an average of 16 months. Four examples of E-SCOPE implementation efforts, including new deployment, scale-up/spread, deimplementation, and operational efforts, are described.

Conclusion: A single, centralized program for the proactive identification of the most up-to-date, evidence-based best practices and facilitated implementation can efficiently and effectively promote continuous learning and implementation in a learning health care system.

https://journals.lww.com/lww-medicalcare/Fulltext/2019/10001/E_SCOPE__A_Strategic_Approach_to_Identify_and.9.aspx

-un saludo juan gérvas @JuanGrvas

 

El mié., 11 sept. 2019 a las 11:48, Douglas Badenoch (<[log in to unmask]>) escribió:

Folk may also be interested in the James Lind Library, which charts the evolution of what we would call scientific methods in how we evaluate the effects of treatments. https://www.jameslindlibrary.org/ (COI - I am an editor)

Concepts such as counting the number of outcomes, comparing alternative treatments, and building on reviews of what has gone before, were not born whole into the world.

This history is replete with instances of care doing more harm than good because it hadn't been subject to scientific tests (e.g. bloodletting).

So it's true when people say science is a social construct, but it's the best one we know of for answering certain questions.  It's certainly demonstrably better than the alternative social constructs of quackery, rhetoric and closed-shop vested interest.

cheers

Douglas

On 11/09/2019 09:20, Juan Gérvas wrote:

 

Can one use the scientific method to prove or disprove the effectiveness of the scientific method?

Teresa Benson

YES, OF COURSE. IT IS METASCIENCE

Metascience is the use of scientific methodology to study science itself. Metascience seeks to increase the quality of scientific research while reducing waste. It is also known as "research on research" and "the science of science", as it uses research methods to study how research is done and where improvements can be made. Metascience concerns itself with all fields of research and has been described as "a bird's eye view of science."

-un saludo juan gérvas

 

El mar., 3 sept. 2019 a las 22:10, Benson, Teresa (<[log in to unmask]>) escribió:

Can one use the scientific method to prove or disprove the effectiveness of the scientific method?

 

Teresa Benson

Sr. Clinical Information Specialist

Change Healthcare

18211 Yorkshire Ave

Prior Lake, MN 55372

 

T 952.226.4033

E [log in to unmask]  

 

Confidentiality Notice: This email message and any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential information.  Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is strictly prohibited.  If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message.

 

 

 

From: Evidence based health (EBH) <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of McCormack, James
Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2019 4:06 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: (External Email) Re: Without evidence of the impact of EBM (health outcomes)

 

Except leeches are a treatment. EBP IMHO is a philosophy. How or why would you test a philosophy? Can anyone argue clinicians SHOULDN’T use the best available evidence?

James

 

On Sep 3, 2019, at 10:47 AM, Juan Gérvas <[log in to unmask]> wrote:



-very ironic, EBM people asking always "What is the evidence for...?"

-but you cannot ask them "What is the evidence for EBM helping patients-populations?" because "there is no alternative"

-even if EBM is harming patients,... Evidence Based Health Care please!

-leeches were used in medicine from ancient times until the 19th century to draw blood from patients, as appropiate treatment for pneumonia, for example and we abandon it without "asking for alternatives"

-but probably "leeches people" asked at that time Leeches please!

-un saludo juan gérvas @JuanGrvas

 

El mar., 3 sept. 2019 a las 19:20, McCormack, James (<[log in to unmask]>) escribió:

Hi Everyone - Just to throw another wrench in this debate I would like suggest there is no reason to study to see if EBM improves outcomes. In my mind I consider EBM more of a philosophy than a true intervention.

Whether or not EBM impacts health care

1) health care providers need to be able to appraise an article - at least in a cursory way - and understand the differences between ARR, RRR, NNT, OR etc
2) they need to be able to communicate these numbers (when needed) to patients
3) guideline writers need to write guidelines that provide clinicians with these numbers in an easy way to understand and use

So, clinicians should be able to use the best available evidence and IMHO for most things "Shared decision is the only outcome that matters when it comes to evaluating evidence-based practice”

Glyn Elwyn and I wrote about this here

https://ebm.bmj.com/content/23/4/137

We give an example in this paper where following the best available evidence and doing SDM could worsen outcomes - but that is OK in our opinion.

Would love to hear if people think we are way off base.

James



> On Sep 3, 2019, at 8:43 AM, Donald E. Stanley <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Your opinion is correct. Juan. For every RCT, or meta, there are few guides to talking to patients: how to conduct an appropriate physical examination, when to order tests, the point of the EBM movement was captured in the Sackett phrase ‘best’, ‘judicious’, ‘individual’, all value-laden concepts. No possible RCT could be designed with these outcomes.
> The clinical encounter is being submerged  by evidence!
>
> Dr. Donald E. Stanley FCAP
> Associates in Pathology
> 500 West Neck Road
> Nobleboro, ME. 04555
> [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
>
>
> On Sep 3, 2019, at 11:16, Juan Gérvas <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>
> This message originated outside of MaineHealth. Use caution when opening attachments, clicking links or responding to requests for information.
>
> -Amy, sorry for not explaining my reason and thanks for your comment
> -the reason why i posted this is logic, to answer a key question (with kindness and respect):
> "if the final objective of EBM is to improve patients-populations' health, do we have evidence of succeed in this objective?"
> -an the answer, sadly, is: NO
> -i have tried to find the best evidence to answer the question, with four references
> -if you have better references, or a different answer, please share with me
> -it is not a question about science and hype, it is a question about the use of resources (time and money) without impact on patients-populations' health
> -or, worse, is EBM harming patients-populations' health? we don not know
> -un saludo juan gérvas @JuanGrvas
>
>
> El mar., 3 sept. 2019 a las 16:34, Dr Amy Price (<[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>) escribió:
> Dear Juan,
>
> Why did you post this?  This is biased, divisive, and harmful Juan and uses selective evidence. Evidence Based Healthcare showed me how to critically appraise  evidence fairly and how to differentiate science from hype. This listserve is kind to newcomers and shares their expertise freely, they also deserve our kindness and respect. Sharing and explaining the difference between science and hype  and showing others where to find evidence has saved many lives in my circles and has made a way for patients to have a  better quality future by their own standards. It certainly does not leave patient and public involvement out. Of course there are less than ideal people in every discipline and  EBM is not exempt. I am so disappointed by this post and I do not think this angle with these sources is worthy of a debate.
>
> Amy
>
> From: "[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> on behalf of Juan Gérvas <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> Reply-To: Juan Gérvas <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> Date: Tuesday, 3 September 2019 at 4:10 am
> To: "[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> Subject: Without evidence of the impact of EBM (health outcomes)
>
> -should be abandon EBM because its lack of impact (health impact)?
> -is EBM just an amusement?
> "None of the studies evaluated health outcomes"
> What is the evidence that postgraduate teachingin evidence based medicine changes anything? A systematic review.
> https://www.bmj.com/content/329/7473/1017.short<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.bmj.com_content_329_7473_1017.short&d=DwMFaQ&c=ST5Jxgx_zZ9nYuPWkSm01Luus8kzn0TCuX9tmQgnWms&r=rjsxb-GTyTNow3RMYbEzyQ&m=iDCu4blFkZOjmANmbKmXatdDinBtzgqeFvngc6V_sJk&s=1SyzxIWcX6lfGymTPJq65kL7nYIORt1fXeg7lML_X48&e=>
> "Few articles address the impact of teaching EBM on clinical outcomes, and in particular those that matter to patients as well as clinicians. Coomarasamy and Khan did not identify any studies"
> What has evidence based medicine done for us?
> https://www.bmj.com/content/329/7473/987.short<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.bmj.com_content_329_7473_987.short&d=DwMFaQ&c=ST5Jxgx_zZ9nYuPWkSm01Luus8kzn0TCuX9tmQgnWms&r=rjsxb-GTyTNow3RMYbEzyQ&m=iDCu4blFkZOjmANmbKmXatdDinBtzgqeFvngc6V_sJk&s=4jfupY6xUdKhK9zzgldTS6bkik9jr5Xr9TOYQklCcz8&e=>
> "None of the trials assessed patient-relevant outcomes".
> Effectiveness of training in evidence-based medicine skills for healthcare professionals: a systematic review.
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4820973/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov_pmc_articles_PMC4820973_&d=DwMFaQ&c=ST5Jxgx_zZ9nYuPWkSm01Luus8kzn0TCuX9tmQgnWms&r=rjsxb-GTyTNow3RMYbEzyQ&m=iDCu4blFkZOjmANmbKmXatdDinBtzgqeFvngc6V_sJk&s=N5xYZhh7u_YHvUkJe3Rklo9VndkJ1B3QqfVK1hbyWZM&e=>
> What Are the Effects of Teaching Evidence-Based Health Care (EBHC)? Overview of Systematic Reviews.
> https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0086706<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__journals.plos.org_plosone_article-3Fid-3D10.1371_journal.pone.0086706&d=DwMFaQ&c=ST5Jxgx_zZ9nYuPWkSm01Luus8kzn0TCuX9tmQgnWms&r=rjsxb-GTyTNow3RMYbEzyQ&m=iDCu4blFkZOjmANmbKmXatdDinBtzgqeFvngc6V_sJk&s=AknSVPEZa5m3rY0gq2QI00UC1Tol2LGLB8Sp8gNkpzI&e=>
> -un saludo juan gérvas @JuanGrvas
>
>
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