medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and cultureThe same creeds which say that the eternal Word was "begotten, not made", also say that Christ incarnate was generated and born of the Virgin Mary: "natus ex Maria Virgine" (Apostles' Creed); "ex substantia matris in saeculo natus" (Athanasian Creed / Quicumque vult); "et incarnatus est de Spíritu Sancto ex María Vírgine, et homo factus est" (Nicene Creed). Early Fathers such as Ignatius of Antioch emphasise that Christ "is truly of the race of David according to the flesh" (Letter to the Smyrneans 1.1, alluding to Romans 1:3). Possibly your author is simply reflecting the language of the Nicene creed "and was made man". -- Paul Chandlermedieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and cultureI always understood 'begotten, not made' to refer to God the Son. Does it also apply to his incarnate form? It's Jesus's human body that I'm really thinking about.Katherine, it absolutely refers to the Christ, pre-incarnate and incarnate. There can be no separation of the godhead from the body under catholic, orthodox understandings of Christology. This was worked out in the third and fourth ecumenical councils (Ephesus and Chalcedon), though one could say that that particular fight continued through the fifth and sixth councils, too. The formula from Chalcedon was intended to defend against both Nestorianism and Monophysitism. It states unequivocally that the two Natures (divine and human) are unchangeably united without mixture or confusion, indivisible and inseparable yet distinct in the single Person of Christ incarnate of the Theotokos (that term itself is crucially important in terms of understanding the Incarnation). The formula itself is actually enshrined and chanted in hymns in the Byzantine church, so in the East, it would have been known to the people (how well they really grasped and understood theological subtleties is another matter ... religious identity was [and continues to be] largely coterminous with ethnic and political identities). So, depending on what side of the divides (Miaphysite, Dyophysite, East Syrian) any given person was on, that would determine their understanding of this. The Latin Church was in the dyophysite camp along with the Byzantine, Slavic, and Georgian churches.If your question is how well did your average (and likely illiterate) fourteenth-century English peasant farmer know the Chalcedonian formula, I can't even begin to answer that (but, as far as I can tell, there wasn't exactly a big groundswell of Nestorian and Miaphysite reform movements in the West; IIRC, the various heresies of the day seem to have revolved more around things like papal authority, the validity of sacraments especially in light of clerical corruption, etc.). I doubt that there were really many clergy who wouldn't have basically understood the Incarnation in terms of orthodox, catholic dyophysite Christology. I could see how some of the Cathars might have tried to follow a more Nestorian or Monophysite Christology because that would bolster their anti-materialist quasi-gnostic kinds of views.- Kurt********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religionmedieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and cultureI always understood 'begotten, not made' to refer to God the Son. Does it also apply to his incarnate form? It's Jesus's human body that I'm really thinking about.********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religionmedieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religionIf I understand the question that was asked, I'd assume that any medieval Christian who knew the Nicene Creed would have understood that Jesus Christ was "begotten, not made" by God the Father.
Sherry Reames
From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Rosemary Hayes <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2019 9:27:04 AM
To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: [M-R] Medieval Theology and the Nature of Christmedieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religionDear Katherine
I can’t answer your substantive question but, leaving Jesus aside, Christians believed that at least one ‘normal’ man, Lazarus, to say nothing of the daughter of Jairus, had been raised from the dead.
Best,
Rosemary Hayes
From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Katherine Hindley
Sent: 31 July 2019 13:26
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [M-R] Medieval Theology and the Nature of Christ
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Dear list members,
I wonder if someone can help me with a question about the medieval understanding of Christ? I'm working on a 15th c. English poem (Lovelich's History of the Holy Grail) in which a non-Christian character insists that it is impossible to raise the dead 'For non Man that Evere was wrowht.' This has made me wonder whether in 15th c. England Christ-as-man would have been understood by the general audience of the poem as having been created. Do any of you know, or know where I might look to find out?
Thank you for any help!
Best,
Katherine
********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion
--********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religionPaul Chandler, O.Carm.
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