Print

Print


medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

The *Creed of Nicaea* is one source of guidance. The *Gospel  of John *is
another.

*1 <https://biblehub.com/john/1-1.htm>In the beginning was the Word, and
the Word was with God, and the Word was God.*

*2 <https://biblehub.com/john/1-2.htm>The same was in the beginning with
God.*

*3 <https://biblehub.com/john/1-3.htm>All things were made by him; and
without him was not any thing made that was made.*
The Word, or Logos in the original Greek, refers to Christ as a divinity
that always existed and therefore never created. The incarnation is not
generally considered an act of creation but one of God, in the person of
the Son, coming to earth or entering Creation, in the flesh.

To the extent that the general audience of the poem subscribed to either
the *Creed* or to *John*, then they would not consider Christ-as-man as
having been created. This says nothing about the poet's intention. Not
having read the poem, I can't say if it is the poet's expressed view that
Christ-as-man was created. If that is what the poem says or implies, then I
could see a general audience might have understood this as the poet's view,
though perhaps not their own.

A generally overlooked source of additional guidance on 'Incarnation'
is *Genesis
2*. There, the activities of God, the Father, are very suggestive of an
incarnated deity. He plants a garden and then walks in it in the cool of
the the day. He then populates it with Adam and Eve with whom he engages in
conversation. He then clothes them and finally curses them. This God the
Father seems rather incarnate to me, though from the rest of Genesis there
is no question that he existed 'in the beginning', that is to say, before
Creation. But I doubt your poet's  'general audience' would have seen
things this way..

Cheers,
Richard J Legault

On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 12:48 PM Katherine Hindley <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> I understood that the three persons of the Trinity (Father / Son / Holy
> Spirit) always existed, but that the Son became incarnate at a particular
> point in time.  If God the Son is ONLY the incarnate form surely that would
> imply that he was created, since he wouldn't have existed during the period
> before the incarnation?
> Please excuse any heresies I'm accidentally spreading - this is quite far
> from my usual area of research!
>
>
> On Wed, 31 Jul 2019 at 17:38, Jaye Procure <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>> God the Son IS the incarnate form, as I understand it
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 31, 2019, 12:16 PM Katherine Hindley, <
>> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>>> culture
>>> I always understood 'begotten, not made' to refer to God the Son.  Does
>>> it also apply to his incarnate form?  It's Jesus's human body that I'm
>>> really thinking about.
>>>
>>> On Wed, 31 Jul 2019 at 15:40, SHERRY L REAMES <
>>> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>>>> culture
>>>> If I understand the question that was asked, I'd assume that any
>>>> medieval Christian who knew the Nicene Creed would have understood that
>>>> Jesus Christ was "begotten, not made" by God the Father.
>>>>
>>>> Sherry Reames
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> *From:* medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval
>>>> religious culture <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of
>>>> Rosemary Hayes <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 31, 2019 9:27:04 AM
>>>> *To:* [log in to unmask] <
>>>> [log in to unmask]>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [M-R] Medieval Theology and the Nature of Christ
>>>>
>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>>>> culture
>>>>
>>>> Dear Katherine
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I can’t answer your substantive question but, leaving Jesus aside,
>>>> Christians believed that at least one ‘normal’ man, Lazarus, to say nothing
>>>> of the daughter of Jairus, had been raised from the dead.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Rosemary Hayes
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval
>>>> religious culture <[log in to unmask]> *On Behalf Of *Katherine
>>>> Hindley
>>>> *Sent:* 31 July 2019 13:26
>>>> *To:* [log in to unmask]
>>>> *Subject:* [M-R] Medieval Theology and the Nature of Christ
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
>>>> culture
>>>>
>>>> Dear list members,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I wonder if someone can help me with a question about the medieval
>>>> understanding of Christ?  I'm working on a 15th c. English poem (Lovelich's *History
>>>> of the Holy Grail*) in which a non-Christian character insists that it
>>>> is impossible to raise the dead 'For non Man that Evere was wrowht.'  This
>>>> has made me wonder whether in 15th c. England Christ-as-man would have been
>>>> understood by the general audience of the poem as having been created.  Do
>>>> any of you know, or know where I might look to find out?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for any help!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Katherine
>>>>
>>>> **********************************************************************
>>>> To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME
>>>> to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it
>>>> to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the
>>>> message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In
>>>> order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
>>>> [log in to unmask] For further information,
>>>> visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion
>>>> **********************************************************************
>>>> To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME
>>>> to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it
>>>> to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the
>>>> message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In
>>>> order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
>>>> [log in to unmask] For further information,
>>>> visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion
>>>> **********************************************************************
>>>> To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME
>>>> to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it
>>>> to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the
>>>> message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In
>>>> order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
>>>> [log in to unmask] For further information,
>>>> visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion
>>>
>>> **********************************************************************
>>> To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME
>>> to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it
>>> to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the
>>> message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In
>>> order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
>>> [log in to unmask] For further information, visit
>>> our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion
>>
>> ********************************************************************** To
>> join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to:
>> [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to:
>> [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message:
>> unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to
>> report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
>> [log in to unmask] For further information, visit
>> our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion
>
> ********************************************************************** To
> join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to:
> [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to:
> [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message:
> unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to
> report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
> [log in to unmask] For further information, visit
> our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion

**********************************************************************
To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME
to: [log in to unmask]
To send a message to the list, address it to:
[log in to unmask]
To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion
to: [log in to unmask]
In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
[log in to unmask]
For further information, visit our web site:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion