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Hi Peter, The copies are only indistinguishable after they have been produced. So there has to be good record keeping during production. It's as easy as hanging on to rich meta-data. There was another post today on what to store in mmCIF, I'm sure we can have another record in there to cover this. You do touch the subject of FAIR data here, for reproducibility, do we need to keep the copy and spawn a new copy with the update? Or can we keep update the 'original' copy with a well-defined downgrade path. Off course the meta-data for the original copy needs to be retained in such a case. I hope it is obvious to everyone that we have to keep the copies in stasis, we cannot have them running around to change all the time. This is not just a methodological issue of being able to keep an experiment reproducible, but it is also an HR nightmare. It would require a lot of extra salaries. I mean, copies have rights and what will the unions think? If only we had thought of backing up crystallographers earlier, then we would have a copy of Margaret Thatcher to deal with the unions! Instead, I guess today is a good day to invest in cryo-stasis technology. Cheers, Robbie > -----Original Message----- > From: CCP4 bulletin board [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of > Peter Keller > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2019 12:04 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] Backup of whole synchrotrons > > Hi Robbie, > > On 01/04/2019 07:23, Robbie Joosten wrote: > > I don't think making this GDOR complient is that hard. It's all pretty > > well defined what you store (everything), where you store it, and why. > > There are some philosophical problems with allowing users to have > > their data deleted. Assuming the copy is good enough to reproducing > > the experiment. Deleting a copy would constitute murder. > > You have correctly identified the underlying philosophical issue: it is a variant > of what is now known as the "Teletransportation paradox", see > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teletransportation_paradox>. > > From the point of view of methods developers like you and me, there is an > additional issue: with insufficient raw data to work with, we are required to > create living experimenters as part of our development work. > For the most accurate results, these should be faithful copies of real > synchrotron visitors and beamline scientists, who in many cases are > personally known to us. How should we handle these copies when we need > to release new or updated methods? Since these copies need to be > indistinguishable from the originals, how can we tell whether we are > upgrading the copy or the original? > > Regards, > Peter. > > This means that the > > backups have to be stored in a rather libertarian "state" like Sealand > > or Somalia. > > Keeping that in mind, perrhaps this sort of backup should first be > > implemented with the future African synchrotron. > > > > Cheers, > > Robbie > > > > On 1 Apr 2019 07:46, "[log in to unmask]" > > <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > > While this may sound absurd, the principle of incremental backups > > can help out a great deal here. Like Apple’s Time Machine, all we > > need to do is store a copy of the things which have changed rather > > than the entire facility, which reduces the burden by at least a few > > orders of magnitude. Such efficiency savings will I am sure be of > > great interest in this project. Surely though we could save a copy > > of the experimental Eigenstate before the experiment too, offering > > the option of going back and having another go - every > > experimentalists dream! > > > > I do however take issue with your hypothesis that only the > > experimental equipment need be backed up - surely the experimenters > > also need to be archived, to allow the question “What were you > > thinking??” to be accurately answered when the reviewer’s questions > > come back. Unfortunately due to quantum entanglement issues this > > would probably require archiving the mind-state of dozens of people > > every time you hit “go” with the associated data protection issues - > > I for one would not like to fill in the GDPR section of that EU > > application :-) > > > > Anyhow, best of luck with your application, > > > > Graeme > > > > On 1 Apr 2019, at 04:59, Petr Kolenko > > <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > wrote: > > > > Dear colleagues, > > We all are very happy about the storage of raw crystallographic > > datasets. But, is it really enough? No! Can we do better? Yes, of > > course! > > The problem is that the crystal after the measurement is usually > > burned. It does not make sense to store them any more. But, in order > > to maximize reproducibility and increase the reliability of all our > > results, the committee of the Czech and Slovak Crystallographic > > Association has decided to force our researchers to back up the > > whole experimental station (including synchrotrons and their storage > > rings) after each crystal, each use. Storage of synchrotrons under > > liquid nitrogen is welcomed, but not necessary, yet. For the next > > decade, in-house storage of complete XFELs is expected (EU project > > Horizon 2030, proposal EC.2030.14.1.CZ.004). > > Best regards, > > Petr > > > > > > > ########################################################## > ############ > > ## > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link: > > https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=CCP4BB&A=1 > > > > -- > > This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential, copyright > > and or privileged material, and are for the use of the intended > > addressee only. 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