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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religionIn the well-known Mass of St Gilles panel painting of c.1500, St Gilles is represented elevating the host while the kneeling Charlemagne has both his hands raised.
Jim
From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Thomas Izbicki <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: February 15, 2019 12:19:28 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] POSITIONS OF PRAYERmedieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and cultureJohn,
I have seen an example in which a lay man raises his hands at the elevation. Unfortunately, I do not recall where I saw it.
Tom Izbicki
From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of John Shinners <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2019 1:15:09 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] POSITIONS OF PRAYERmedieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religionJohn Myrc in his "Instructions for Parish Priests" from around 1400 instructs the laity how to behave at the Consecration of the Mass. He seems to envision them lifting up their hands rather than folding them, though Tom is right to direct us to mss of the laity at Mass, etc., where folded hands seem the norm from the brief sample I just looked at from the 12th C on. Mirk:And whenne they here the belle ryngeTo that holy sakerynge,Teche hem knele downe both yonge & olde,And both here hondes vp to holde,And say thenne in thys manere . . . etc. (ll 284 ff. EETS edition)
John
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religionIllustrations of the laity at the elevation of the host are worth examining.
Tom Izbicki
From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Carolyn Muessig <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2019 5:47:01 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] POSITIONS OF PRAYERmedieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religionDear Colleagues,
Going way back, Tertullian’s letter on prayer talks about bodily posture (standing, kneeling, prostrating) as well as tone of voice and position of hands. Issues of prayer and gender are also discussed.
In regard to hands, he talks about the orans position but he also says that it is important that the hands be clean.
'Tertullian, “De Oratione,” in Tertulliani Opera, Pars 1. Opera Catholica. Corpus Christianorum. Series Latina (Brepols, 1954), 257-274
There are a few English translations. One can be found here:
http://www.pseudepigrapha.com/LostBooks/tertullian_prayer.htm
Best wishes,
Carolyn Muessig
University of Bristol
From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Erik Gustafson <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 15 February 2019 02:26
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] POSITIONS OF PRAYERmedieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and cultureHello all,Joanna Cannon briefly discusses Dominican bodily prayer and Rossianus 3 in her phenomenal 2013 Religious Poverty, Visual Riches book (Yale Press), 53-56.
Does Trexler deal with this question in his 1987 Christian at Prayer book? My copy isn't at hand to consult.
regards,erik gustafson
********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religionmedieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and cultureHi Meg. For a long time I've been trying without success to find a good explanation of when and why the orans posture changed to the hands joined one. It seems, as you say, to be around the 12th cent., and there is one theory that it was under Asian influence, which seems rather dubious to me. If anyone knows of bibliography on this change I'd also be most interested.
I'd back up Jim's comment on the interest of the work on the nine ways of prayer of St Dominic in the Vatican ms Rossianus 3. It's easy enough to google the images and sometimes the text, but here is one site with the illuminations:Possibly it's on the Vatican Library website. A reliable translation of the complete text (unillustrated) is in Simon Tugwell, ed., Early Dominicans: Selected Writings, Classics of Western Spirituality, New York: Paulist Press, 1982, 96-103. -- Paul Chandler
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religionHello Meg,
By the later Middle Ages, there was a whole range of attitudes of prayer, as is indicated usefully in Henk van Os, The Art of Devotion in the Late Middle Ages in Europe, 1300-500 (Amsterdam, 1994), esp. pp. 62-64, from which I paraphrase: a late 14th-century manuscript in Siena (Siena, Biblioteca Comunale, Ms. T.I.2, fol. 57r) contains drawings of saints in various attitudes of prayer. You could express penitence by using the scourge, or by pounding yourself on the chest with a hard object. Outstretched arms symbolized ecstacy, and lying prostrate instead of kneeling signified utter subjection. A 15th-century Dominican manuscript, De modo orandi (Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana, Ms. Lat. Rossinus 3), shows the 9 modes of prayer used by St Dominic, with the precise meaning of each pose given. Lying prostrate, for example, signified the awareness of humility. All these attitudes of prayer, van Os concludes, illustrate the importance that was attached to the body language of prayer. There are no further references, but one can get useful hits by googling "De Modo Orandi".
Cheers,
Jim
From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Cormack, Margaret Jean <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: February 14, 2019 12:24:06 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] POSITIONS OF PRAYERmedieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and cultureGreetings all,********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religionI was taught, back in the day, that sometime in the middle ages (probably the 12th c.) the position for praying changed from the 'orans' position (standing, eyes up, hands open at the sides) used in antiquity changed to the more familiar one of kneeling, head bowed over hands together, which I was taught was based on the ritual of homage to one's lord. I´d like to ask about a third possibility, head bowed (apparently) and hands open - on knees or elsewhere 'On knees' as in Bede´s description of Oswald (HE III 12, 1) ubicumque sedens, supinas super genua sua manus habere solitus sit. Is this a usual position for praying, aside from this description? Even if the hands are not on one´s knees, one is just looking into them?Thanks in advance,Meg
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********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religionPaul Chandler, O.Carm.
Holy Spirit Seminary | PO Box 18 (487 Earnshaw Road) | Banyo Qld 4014 | Australia
office: (07) 3267 4804 | mobile: 044 882 4996
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********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religionJohn Shinners
Professor, Schlesinger Chair in Humanistic Studies, Emeritus
Saint Mary's College
Notre Dame, Indiana 46556
Phone: 574-284-4534
Fax: 284-4855
www.saintmarys.edu/~hust
"Learn everything. Later you will see that nothing is superfluous." -- Hugh of St. Victor (d. 1141)