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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Hello David, The fact that there are only 10 figures below is what led Margot Fassler several years ago to propose an alternative iconography for this tympanum than the Ascension. Based on liturgical sources, she proposed that it represented Christ as he was during the time of the Old Testament - existent but not yet incarnated. The wavy lines indicate "borders" between the created world and the spiritual sphere, with angels breaking through to announce the coming incarnation to the figures of prophets below, who look up at the divine inspiration for their prophesies. In the archivolts, the missing zodiac scenes can be found in the archivolts of the right tympanum, surrounding the Virgin and incarnated Christ Child. I'm not at all sure how widely her theory has found acceptance, nor even if she still endorses it, but it is, nevertheless, intriguing. See Margot Fassler, , 'Liturgy and Sacred History in the Twelfth-Century Tympana at Chartres', Art Bulletin, 75, no. 3 (Sept. 1993), 499-520 Cheers, Jim ________________________________ From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of David Critchley <[log in to unmask]> Sent: October 3, 2018 10:23:17 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [M-R] Representation of the Firmament, and the Waters above the Firmament, in Mediaeval Art medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture My thanks to all for these useful suggestions. The Chartres portal is certainly an interesting one: it looks more like a theophany than a disappearance. The angels in the middle register seem very keen to tell us something. I wonder whether the V shaped frame in which Christ appears is in fact the bottom half of what was once a diamond shape: there appears to be part of the top half remaining on the left and perhaps the beginnings of a return on the right. I suspect that if we knew who the ten figures (including at least one female - or is it a beardless St John? - or the BVM and nine apostles?) were, we would have the key. Several of them hold books and must be authors, and a couple hold scrolls which were presumably painted with words which would at once identify the holder. There appear to be circles on the back wall of the tympanum behind them, so they must be saints or at least the blessed. The same grouping of ten must surely recur elsewhere, if only in a manuscript illumination that might have acted as a source. Ascension scenes on the other hand seem uniformly to have 14 figures, ie 12 apostles and 2 men in white - yet at Angouleme in the Ascension portal there are only 10 - the same 10 as at Chartres? Is there any significance in the fact that all twelve months appear in the surround, but only 10 of the signs of the zodiac, with Pisces and Gemini omitted at the apex of the arch? Can we learn anything from the arrangement of the months and the signs of the zodiac? Generally the sequence of either months or signs starts at the bottom of an order, then mounts up to the top, alternating with the other of the months or signs, as it may be, then starts again at the bottom of another order and so on, until all four orders have been populated. September and October seem to have changed places, rather strangely, but otherwise we have summer months on L, winter on R. Is there a connection between the ten signs of the zodiac and the ten human figures? Frustrating, because the symbolic language used by the designer must have been accessible to his audience, or there would be no point in the exercise. David Critchley On 25/09/2018 16:15, Genevra Kornbluth wrote: medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Richard, the "humped" river Jordan is not standard, but also not that unusual. See the Baptism page of my archive: www.kornbluthphoto.com/Baptism.html<http://www.kornbluthphoto.com/Baptism.html> and the Codex Egberti: https://cynthiahindes.blogspot.com/search/label/John%203%3A22%20-36 best, Genevra On 9/25/2018 10:50 AM, Richard Legault wrote: medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Having no German, I can't get much from the caption of Karl's Müstair fresco. Nevertheless, for a work of Carolingian(?) vintage, the perspective of the flowing Jordan, receding and narrowing into the background is outstanding. I love it. There is also the oddly 'humped' wavy lines of water in the other baptism of Jesus done in stucco relief. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_John_Abbey,_M%C3%BCstair#/media/File:Benediktinerkloster_St._Johann_Relief.JPG Karl also makes a good point about the God figure in the Left tympanum of the Chartres Royal Portal. It could just as easily be Christ in contemplation of Creation as God the Father. In the case of Christ, the text of reference would be John 1:1-3 where Christ is identified as the Word (Logos) and, in the beginning, the agent of Creation: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." However, there is no instance in the New Testament of Christ appearing in a whirlwind. That is why I think the imagery of Job is more relevant to the understanding of the oddly angled wavy lines and the body posture of the flanking angels. In any case, to any community faithful to the theology of the Trinity, as were the Chartrians of c.1145 CE, the point is moot. Thank you Karl for pointing this out. I'll need to amend my draft accordingly. Cheers, Richard J Legault On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 2:51 AM Karl Brunner <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Consider the sculpture of the Sign of Pisces in the rightmost archivolt of the Royal Portal at Chartres. There, I think it is clear the wavy lines at the bottom are water - the context is Pisces the Fish. However, look to the leftmost tympanum and consider the wavy lines under the feet of the God figure, that rise obliquely on either side of Him. I just cannot see these oblique wavy lines as water. Nor do I think they represent cloud. Because of the their very bizarre shape, and the context of the posture of the flanking angels, I think there is a good case to be made that these particular wavy lines represent wind - a whirlwind, I think, of the kind described in Job. But sometimes these wavy lines are indeed waves - from the baptism of Christ in the Jordan, and I am sure, it is Christ here, as supreme judge like often over the western door. For the baptism cf. e. g. the funny picture at the frescoes in Müstair http://www.al-fresko.ch/die-taufe-jesu-im-jordan-epiphanie-der-ostkirche/ Best Karl, Vienna See Images at:: Pisces: https://digital.library.pitt.edu/islandora/object/pitt%3AFCSP11250100/viewer Leftmost Tympanum: https://digital.library.pitt.edu/islandora/object/pitt%3AFCSP12200300/from_search/02e47652b0d4f6a867ef40258482c160-4 For Whirlwind idea see: https://www.academia.edu/10497029/Chartres_Royal_Portal_Ascension_or_Creation ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion [https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-green-avg-v1.png]<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Virus-free. www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion