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It might matter to David I suppose. Perhaps a more salutary point is to be wary of how much we still sentimentalize poets. The hagiograph is nervy and twitching still. dave On 11 August 2018 at 21:46, Luke <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > does it matter if he upset David? does it matter if he did so > systemically? does it matter if it really does reflect on how gentle a > biker he was? > > Really sorry for getting involved in this. > > Cheers, > Luke > > On 11 August 2018 at 20:43, David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> Thank you Robert but it doesn't matter what provocations the gentle and >> unassuming Bill saw in the context of the petty warfare of London >> avant-garde poetry culture I was nothing to do with it and he was. The >> gang member from the Seaham houseboat. >> >> PS Alfred did NOT translate Boethius, he commissioned it. The real >> Aelfred the Great was a slave-trader as were all the Anglo-Saxon kinglings. >> Bill's blindness to this seems to be on a par with his neo-nineteenth >> century scholarship, as far I can tell. >> >> On 11 August 2018 at 17:43, Hampson, R <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >>> Dear David, >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for supplying this. >>> >>> >>> It looks to me as if there are two issues here: >>> >>> >>> >>> - Bill was clearly angry about Andrew Duncan's dismissive account of >>> Bob Cobbing (and Writers Forum generally) in his review of Verbi Visi Voco >>> in AE 9 and AE 10. AE10 included a letter from Adrian Clarke (one of the >>> AE editors - who moves from 'Editor on furlough' in AE9 to Editor Emeritus >>> in AE10 - and has disappeared from the editorial board by AE11) which >>> praises AE9 but challenges Andrew's reading of Cobbing and Writers Forum. >>> Bill was also unhappy with Andrew's obituary assessment of Eric Mottram's >>> career in AE12 - probably the assessment of Eric's poetry in particular. >>> Andrew's opinions are vigorously expressed, and there is a fraught >>> atmosphere . You then get caught up in this cross-fire. >>> - Your poem 'Endlines (after Bill Griffiths)' seems to have drawn >>> you into the conflict. I haven't compared your poem with Bill's original, >>> but it is clear that, in the AE context, he saw this poem not as homage but >>> as critique - or, to use his term, 'provocation'. >>> >>> >>> >>> Yes, it is delicious that Bill was 'a gentle and unassuming biker' - >>> just as delicious as that he should be a biker and a very scrupulous >>> Anglo-Saxon Scholar (as his PhD on Alfred's Anglo-Saxon translation of De >>> Consolatione Philosophiae shows) - or a biker and a fine classical >>> pianist. Classical piano playing is a bit harder to tie into gang >>> culture. I knew Bill for over thirty years and my experience of him was >>> of 'a gentle and unassuming man'. This description of him is based on my >>> encounters with him not on some stereotype of bikers. >>> >>> >>> I have seen there is a further email from you. I might not get to it >>> today. >>> >>> >>> >>> Yours, >>> >>> >>> >>> Robert >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]> on >>> behalf of David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]> >>> *Sent:* 10 August 2018 20:44:46 >>> >>> *To:* [log in to unmask] >>> *Subject:* Re: Bill Griffiths: August 20 >>> >>> It's not possible for me to reproduce all the exchanges here, you have >>> to delve through the 1997 archives and the messages don't hang on just one >>> thread. But I did say that I had realised that bikers, prison, Anglo-Saxon >>> and the poetry scene have a commonality - they do - it's that gang culture >>> features in all. Here is Bill Griffiths, from this list, displaying exactly >>> the mindset of literary gang warfare: he turns me into a member of London's >>> avant-garde turf wars and close associate of someone at that point I had >>> never met. >>> I never met Griffiths: I did meet many bikers in my youth and the idea >>> of a gentle and unassuming biker is delicious. I do like his attacking me >>> for using long words, the voice of the pseudo populist itself. >>> >>> Dear List, >>> >>> Apologies for putting David Bircumshaw in such a flurry. I assumed >>> that after his work on my behalf in 'Angel Exhaust' 12 - after the >>> editorship had mysteriously passed to Andrew Duncan - that he would >>> scarcely be surprised at my responding. His provocation was after >>> all not unakin to shoving me in the ear with an umbrella with a >>> horse's head handle. >>> >>> Now here the average list member can check the internet site for >>> 'Angel Exhaust' if they like and see if I am being oversensitive >>> about his contribution or not. That very same issue embellished by >>> David Bircumshaw contained an unsatisfactory assessment of Eric >>> Mottram, while earlier issues contained abusive assessments of Bob >>> Cobbing and his work, with the occasional germinal poke at my good >>> self. >>> >>> This is the context in which David Bircumshaw chose to place his >>> curious re-writing of one my shortest poems. So short, that it >>> hardly needed a Bircumshaw at all to point out its short-comings. >>> Nonetheless he valiantly strives to make as much muck and >>> pig out of nine lines as he can. I would say this was very much >>> placing himself at the forefront of the campaign against a few >>> targeted poets, which flowered so spectacularly in Andrew Duncan's >>> article for 'First Offence'. >>> >>> Why do I object to David Bircumshaw claiming an anti-right >>> stance for his critical mirage? Because the main figures >>> attacked by his associate Andrew Duncan are Eric Mottram and >>> Bob Cobbing. That this is some harmless expression of mutual >>> rivalry between Cambridge and London I beg to disbelieve; it >>> seems to me more significant that these two have been key >>> figures in a socialist-democratic expansion of modern culture - >>> not by any overtly political action, but by a generous disposition >>> to encourage innovation and experiment, as against the rather >>> elite, exclusive, and negative image of European High Culture >>> Andrew Duncan seems to me to propagate. >>> >>> What else is there to link David Bircumshaw and Andrew Duncan? A >>> very considerable similarity of tone and attitude I should say. >>> They share the same dependence on Freudian assumptions (David >>> Bircumshaw, mailing of 8 Nov 1998 re puns and Andrew Duncan on >>> poetry as confession in essay on Bob Cobbing in 'Angel Exhaust' >>> 9-10). The same defensive ploy of resorting to rare words and >>> unexplained elite concepts (David Bircumshaw's recent mailings and >>> Andrew Duncan passim). They also share a sort of self-mystification >>> process, as though they chose to locate in some startling scifi >>> situation of Jack Vance. >>> >>> I am not saying that David Bircumshaw and Andrew Duncan share one >>> brain. I have no evidence on this subject at all. >>> >>> But it does seem to me odd, that David Bircumshaw should somehow >>> naturally see abstract words as alternatives to insults. Again, >>> this rings remarkably like the tendency to personal abuse that >>> Andrew Duncan has come to favour recently. He can hardly have >>> misunderstood my preference for facts over abstractions when it >>> comes to serious assessment of any subject. But perhaps in all >>> this he coincides with Andrew Duncan purely by coincidence, and >>> it is evidence of no cultural connection or sympathy at all. >>> >>> How can we test it? By deeds, surely, rather than words. >>> >>> Will David Bircumshaw withdraw his mangling of my poem from >>> publication and from the internet and apologise? >>> >>> I do not expect any amazing revelation or denunciation. I merely >>> ask him to be a little less evasive about his position, and little >>> more considerate before he single anyone out again for would-be >>> worldwide dishonour. This is surely the way - rather than treating us >>> to lots of long words - to establish his name for fairness and >>> objectivity. >>> >>> bill >>> [log in to unmask] <https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?LOGON=A2%3Dind98%26L%3DBRITISH-IRISH-POETS%26F%3D%26S%3D%26P%3D1942750> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 10 August 2018 at 19:57, Luke <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>> >>> I sound like a dick, sorry. Just pseudo sticking up for David, and >>> annoyed that no-one else uses this list except to mourn dead friends... >>> People are mostly just people, would be nicer to have a discussion of the >>> poetry. >>> >>> Luke >>> >>> On 10 August 2018 at 19:48, Luke <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>> >>> > My impression was, precisely, of a 'gentle and unassuming man'. And, >>> yes, he lived on the breadline >>> >>> Maybe I'm missing something. I'll buy some books. >>> >>> On 10 August 2018 at 19:40, Hampson, R <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>> >>> Thank you for this. I knew Bill from the 1970s onwards - and this fits >>> with my sense of him. I heard him talking about Old English poetry; I heard >>> him reading on numerous occasions; and I met up with him at Westfield when >>> he was archiving Eric Mottram's papers. My impression was, precisely, of a >>> 'gentle and unassuming man'. And, yes, he lived on the breadline - and died >>> far too soon. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Robert >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]> on >>> behalf of Paul Holman <[log in to unmask]> >>> *Sent:* 09 August 2018 21:21:12 >>> *To:* [log in to unmask] >>> *Subject:* Re: Bill Griffiths: August 20 >>> >>> David, would you care to explain, carefully & slowly, what you mean by >>> that remark. I knew Bill Griffiths well back in the day, & he was a gentle >>> & unassuming man, located so far from any kind of literary privilege that >>> the bulk of his writing was issued as very obviously home made spiral bound >>> pamphlets. He lived on the breadline, & spent time among bikers, in prison, >>> & on a houseboat before settling deeply into life at Seaham, all a very >>> long way from centres of cultural power & influence. He died in middle age, >>> with a tiny readership & plenty of work left to do, & I see absolutely no >>> reason to carp that his poetry, which is absolutely breathtaking at its >>> best, is receiving a degree of attention & celebration now. >>> >>> ######################################################################## >>> >>> To unsubscribe from the BRITISH-IRISH-POETS list, click the following >>> link: >>> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=BRITISH-I >>> RISH-POETS&A=1 >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> To unsubscribe from the BRITISH-IRISH-POETS list, click the following >>> link: >>> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=BRITISH-I >>> RISH-POETS&A=1 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> To unsubscribe from the BRITISH-IRISH-POETS list, click the following >>> link: >>> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=BRITISH-I >>> RISH-POETS&A=1 >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> To unsubscribe from the BRITISH-IRISH-POETS list, click the following >>> link: >>> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=BRITISH-I >>> RISH-POETS&A=1 >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> To unsubscribe from the BRITISH-IRISH-POETS list, click the following >>> link: >>> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=BRITISH-I >>> RISH-POETS&A=1 >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> To unsubscribe from the BRITISH-IRISH-POETS list, click the following >> link: >> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=BRITISH-I >> RISH-POETS&A=1 >> > > > ------------------------------ > > To unsubscribe from the BRITISH-IRISH-POETS list, click the following link: > https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=BRITISH-IRISH-POETS&A=1 > ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the BRITISH-IRISH-POETS list, click the following link: https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=BRITISH-IRISH-POETS&A=1