Mike,
The comment about “attack space” was really to make sure you do factor in the necessary resource, be it internal or external, rather than avoid.
I would also say that whilst I like Joomla I have found it lacking in the area of extras, and so would probably only consider Drupal and Wordpress these days.
Dave
From: Museums Computer Group <[log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of Mike Ellis
Sent: 12 June 2018 21:25
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Sharepoint vs. Wordpress
It's an interesting point. I think as resident WordPress zealot, my first thought was - if you're going to do that, then just do wordpress.com <http://wordpress.com> and then at least you have a sort of "future runway" to move up into wordpress.org <http://wordpress.org> if / when you need it...
The reason I'd say this (zealotry aside) is content portability - last time I looked, migrating things out of Squarespace was awful - but that might have changed. Also though, the non open source thing, and also the lack of potential support.
Someone earlier said about the WordPress attack surface - this is true from one angle, as the most used CMS on the planet. But: a good supplier will provide backups, updates, staging, git deployment and support. And the bigness of WordPress comes with an enormous advantage: hundreds of thousands of developers, designers and support forums.
As I say to people who work with us: we want you to like us in 2, 3 and 10 years - but we'd rather you had the option to go to someone else than end up stuck. I think this is part of the portability argument, too - don't get tied into a specific agency, or something horribly bespoke / nailed down.
cheers
Mike
_____________________________
Mike Ellis
Thirty8 Digital: a small but perfectly formed digital agency: http://thirty8.co.uk
* Workshops, courses and free downloads: http://trainingdigital.co.uk *
On Tue, 12 Jun 2018 at 20:40, Ben Rubinstein <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > wrote:
Hi Megan,
I'll certainly endorse everyone else's view that Drupal or Wordpress - or
almost anything else! - would be preferable to Sharepoint.
But a more radical option that you might want to consider is not having a
custom built site - albeit built on a 'standard' CMS framework - at all, but
instead using a hosted template-able system, something like Squarespace.
This won't give you the infinite flexibility of a something built in a CMS
framework, but would certainly accommodate your current site, and of the
integrations you mention, online shop and ticketing should be straightforward.
Commissioning an external agency to customise and theme a Squarespace (e.g.)
site would almost certainly be a _lot_ cheaper than commissioning a full
external build; and in addition to the saving on the 'capital' build cost,
you'd get an ongoing saving on maintenance - as Dave mentions, Drupal,
Wordpress et al need looking after, so having that maintenance taken care of
by a dedicated team and rolled into the hosting fee makes a considerable
difference to the ongoing budget. This is especially important if you were
going to commission a site with e-commerce functionality. (Unless your IT
department are already comfortable with supporting Drupal, Wordpress, ModX,
Joomla or whatever - and if they are with one of those, that's probably a very
compelling reason to choose that one if you don't go for this idea.)
The one item that I expect wouldn't be simple with this option would be the
online collection. I imagine (without knowing anything about it!) that it
would be possible, but it would certainly involve some custom development. But
again, still likely a lot cheaper overall; and depending on your timelines,
you could proceed iteratively.
There, I've said it! I certainly think you should look at
Drupal/Wordpress/etc; but you should consider something like Squarespace as a
reference alternative.
Hope this helps,
Ben
On 12/06/2018 17:03, Dave Wade wrote:
> My only issue with popular CMSs like Drupal, Joomla and WordPress is that
> being common they are targets for hacking and must be kept up to date. It's
> no good saying we are obscure we won't be a target, everyone is a target. The
> hackers just want a web site to leverage and have scripts that scan just
> looking for holes. So you also need a backup and recovery strategy, for when
> it does get hacked.
>
> Make sure you have the resources to cope with these requirements.
>
> As for making stuff available, I rather like the features of Drupal. It has
> some features that IMHO lend themselves to Museum data. I have used it to
> catalogue my local radio club library and found it flexible with the way you
> could build filtered sorted views of objects. You can probably do the same in
> WordPress or Joomla but I think it might be more fiddly.
>
> In fact given the wide availability of all three I would perhaps build three
> prototypes just to see how things worked in each.
>
> If you already have an in house system like modes, you may also wish to look
> at the import/export features in your chosen CMS as that might help you you
> quickly generate content.
>
> Dave Wade
> Museum volunteer who look after a couple of small community web sites, but who
> is share point trained and could never see any business value in it.....
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, 12 Jun 2018, 17:31 Kevin Bacon,
> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> >> wrote:
>
> Hello Megan,____
>
> __ __
>
> At Royal Pavilion & Museums we also used to run a Sharepoint website. I’d
> agree with all the comments previously made – even simple page edits could
> feel like trying to defuse a bomb.____
>
> __ __
>
> We switched to a Wordpress site back in 2015, and it was a huge
> improvement. Much cheaper to develop and maintain, and it’s very easy to
> train a wider group of staff to use it.____
>
> __ __
>
> As we’re also a local authority museums service, I’d happy to share costs
> and other data off-list that might help you persuade the Council to
> switch. ____
>
> __ __
>
> Cheers, ____
>
> __ __
>
> Kevin____
>
> __ __
>
> Kevin Bacon____
>
> Digital Manager____
>
> Royal Pavilion & Museums, Brighton & Hove____
>
> __ __
>
> 4-5 Pavilion Buildings____
>
> Brighton____
>
> BN1 1EE____
>
> __ __
>
> Tel: 01273 292817____
>
> Email: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> >____
>
> Web: http://brightonmuseums.org.uk <http://brightonmuseums.org.uk/>____
>
> Become a Member and help us conserve our unique cultural heritage and
> receive some great benefits:
> http://brightonmuseums.org.uk/discover/get-involved/join-us/____
>
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/royalpavilionandbrightonmuseums____
>
> | Twitter: @BrightonMuseums www.twitter.com/brightonmuseums <http://www.twitter.com/brightonmuseums>
> <http://www.twitter.com/brightonmuseums> |____
>
> __ __
>
> *From:*Museums Computer Group [mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> >] *On Behalf Of *Linda Ellis
> *Sent:* 12 June 2018 16:19
> *To:* [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> >
> *Subject:* Re: [MCG] Sharepoint vs. Wordpress____
>
> __ __
>
> When I worked for Wolverhampton City Council we won the argument of why we
> needed to have a website that wasn't on the council's cms because we
> wanted to put our collections online, the council's cms couldn't support
> that and so we got approval. Had to make the case for why we wanted to
> put collections online (widening / improving access etc, etc) but it was
> relatively straight forward to argue the case.____
>
> __ __
>
> Later on we wanted to do partnership working with other museums and
> archives nearby and having our own website made it so much easier for us.____
>
> __ __
>
> Linda Ellis____
>
> __ __
>
> On 12 June 2018 at 16:03, Mike Ellis <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> >> wrote:____
>
> Hi ____
>
> __ __
>
> Don’t, whatever you do, use SharePoint in this role if you can avoid it ____
>
> __ __
>
> Fundamental reasons:____
>
> __ __
>
> - it’s awful for editors. Absolutely awful. And if there is any point at
> all in having a CMS’d website, it’s “to make things easier for editors”.____
>
> __ __
>
> - it’ll be tragically and hugely expensive. Even if you apparently have
> internal resource, you’ll find the normal “you’re just not a priority”
> responses from the IT dept 6 months down the line. If you ever look to
> outsource this, you’ll more than likely find SharePoint developers at
> about £1500 a day.____
>
> __ __
>
> - you’ll never own it - JO’s point about it not being O/S is fairly
> critical____
>
> __ __
>
> - you just can’t start small and build up. WordPress is brilliant at this,
> and in fact you’ll probably find the same with mature made-for-purpose O/S
> content management systems ____
>
> __ __
>
> - same as above really, but there will come a day when you’ll need a shop,
> or ticketing, or a calendar or whatever - and being in a position where
> you can approach an open market and ask those questions is going to be
> really important.____
>
> __ __
>
> Website costs: I’ll email you off-list. So much “it depends” (my facetious
> answer is: “how much is a house?”) - but basically it’ll depend on 1)
> complexity of design, 2) technical integration and 3) amount of (and
> complexity of) content that needs to be migrated.____
>
> __ __
>
> cheers____
>
> __ __
>
> Mike____
>
> __ __
>
> ps { In fact, in my humble opinion, don’t use SharePoint in *any* role… if
> you absolutely have to AND you’ve got resource AND support AND knowledge
> internally AND budget to keep it going AND are ok with something with a
> dogs-arse user interface…. then it’ll make an OK-ish document repository,
> and it’s integration with Office is quite clever at times.…but really,
> just don’t. }____
>
> __ __
>
> _________________
>
> __ __
>
> Mike Ellis____
>
> __ __
>
> Thirty8 Digital: a small but perfectly formed digital agency____
>
> http://thirty8.co.uk <http://thirty8.co.uk/>____
>
> __ __
>
> ** NEW: http://wpformuseums.com <http://wpformuseums.com/> for people
> using WordPress in museums **____
>
> ** Workshops, courses and free downloads: http://trainingdigital.co.uk
> <http://trainingdigital.co.uk/> **____
>
> On 12 Jun 2018, 15:52 +0100, Jeremy Ottevanger <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> >>, wrote:
>
> ____
>
> Hi,____
>
> Tragically SharePoint was, in fact, built to be a CMS - at least,
> Microsoft's CMS 2002 was integrated into/replaced by SharePoint 2007
> (IIRC) which was supposed to be able to do the same job and serve as a CMS
> as well as a document managment system. But Dee is right, it sucks at that
> job, or it certainly did when I last looked at it. Whilst you can develop
> your own code around it, it's not open source and that will always limit
> what you can do. At least as importantly, but not unrelated, the community
> of developers around it is nothing compared to that which you can call on
> to develop the well-known open source CMSes like WordPress and Drupal. You
> can always find a new developer to help you rather. That same community
> also means that there is a galaxy of plugins/modules/themes/skins
> available for free, which will give you a massive leg-up.____
>
> There are many open source CMS beyondWordPress and Drupal, but the former
> would be a really sensible first stop. You will find candidate plugins for
> all that you want to achieve, but if you want to do something different
> you'll find plenty of people who can develop it for you, including on this
> very list. Plus hosting is pretty cheap and again with loads of options.____
>
> Good luck!
>
> Jeremy ____
>
> Dr Jeremy Ottevanger____
>
> Director, Sesamoid Consulting Limited____
>
> __ __
>
> t: +44(0)1787 475 487____
>
> m: +44(0)7865 887 887____
>
> e:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> >____
>
> twitter: @jottevanger____
>
> LinkedIn:www.linkedin.com/in/jeremy-ottevanger <http://www.linkedin.com/in/jeremy-ottevanger>
> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/jeremy-ottevanger>____
>
> On 12/06/2018 15:17, Jones, Megan wrote:____
>
> Hi Dee,____
>
> ____
>
> Just Museums and Galleries! We don’t want a hugely drastic change to
> our (pretty straightforward) site map, just looking for a much more
> user friendly/better looking solution that allows us to integrate
> things like an online shop, ticketing, collections online – which the
> version of Sharepoint that the council is currently using doesn’t
> allow us to do.____
>
> ____
>
> Desperate times!____
>
> ____
>
> Cheers,____
>
> ____
>
> Megan____
>
> ____
>
> *From:*Museums Computer Group [mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> ] *On Behalf
> Of* Nadine Ishani
> *Sent:* 12 June 2018 15:08
> *To:* [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> >
> *Subject:* Re: Sharepoint vs. Wordpress____
>
> ____
>
> Hi Megan,____
>
> ____
>
> Do you mean the whole council website or just museums and galleries?____
>
> ____
>
> Sharepoint wasn't built to be a CMS (although people do use it as
> such) but whether Wordpress is suitable or not depends on the scale of
> the project IMO.____
>
> ____
>
> Dee____
>
> Sent from my iPhone____
>
>
> On 12 Jun 2018, at 14:47, Jones, Megan
> <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> <mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> >> wrote:____
>
> Hi everyone,____
>
> ____
>
> We’re currently using Sharepoint as our content management system
> (as the council’s internal platform of choice) but we’ve been
> building a case for a while to have our website redeveloped
> externally in something more widely used, like Wordpress.____
>
> ____
>
> To help with our case, it would be great to have:____
>
> ____
>
> 1.opinions on both platforms and which is better (in terms of ease
> of use for admins, user experience, price etc)____
>
> 2.anyone who has experienced the same transition or has recently
> gone through a website redevelopment to Wordpress and feels
> generous enough to give me a hint as to how much it cost.____
>
> ____
>
> We’ve done all the research we can do, but having opinions and
> examples from others in the field would be great.____
>
> ____
>
> Huge thanks in advance!____
>
> ____
>
> Megan____
>
> ____
>
> Megan Jones____
>
> Digital Engagement Officer____
>
> Leeds Museums and Galleries____
>
> www.leeds.gov.uk/museumsandgalleries <http://www.leeds.gov.uk/museumsandgalleries>
> <http://www.leeds.gov.uk/museumsandgalleries>____
>
> Twitter @LeedsMuseums <https://twitter.com/LeedsMuseums>/ Facebook
> @LeedsMuseumsandGalleries
> <https://www.facebook.com/LeedsMuseumsandGalleries/>
> Postal Address: Leeds Discovery Centre, Carlisle Road, Leeds, LS10
> 1LB____
>
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> -- ____
>
> Dr Linda Ellis____
>
> Project Manager____
>
> Orangeleaf Systems Ltd
> 1 – 2 Barker Street
> Shrewsbury
> SY1 1SB____
>
> Tel: 01743 352000____
>
> http://www.orangeleaf.com____
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