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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Dear Paul, Good to follow this exchange. Motive is not easy to attribute, of course. But I would say the attraction of the Franciscans, when they were new in Oxford, is illustrated in the Dunstable Annals, by a story of two Augustinian canons who were so enamoured with the idea of joining the new movement that they left the priory by a broken window, jumped over the wall, and enlisted at Oxford. The Dunstable Annals entry for 1233-1234 reads: In the same year two canons of Dunstable, Walter who had taken his vows and John who hadn’t, without permission departed from the priory by escaping through a broken window and jumping over the monastery wall. They took the habit of the Franciscans at Oxford. The prior of Dunstable had them denounced as being excommunicated both at Oxford and elsewhere. Because of this Walter, bringing three of the Franciscans with him, came back to Dunstable and humbly begged the chapter for pardon. He swore that he would obey the commands of the prior in everything, as his order demanded. And so he was absolved on the order of the prior after receiving the discipline of corporal punishment from three canons, and afterwards vocal admonishment from the whole community. Finally he was instructed first to return the books and clothes which he had taken away with him, and then within a year to decide whether to stay with the Franciscans, if their order was stricter than ours, or to return to our order, where he could count on a gracious reception. John however was found by the prior in London and received a similar absolution. With brother Nicholas he went to Rome, taking with him Henry Archer. In this year Richard Falco converted to the same order. I have given the paragraph in full because the translation is that of David Preest, not yet published, but due this coming November. Steve Williams. From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul Chandler Sent: 28 May 2018 04:18 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [M-R] Recruitment to friars in 13th century medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Thank you, Steve. Most helpful. -- Paul On 28 May 2018 at 08:18, steve watts <[log in to unmask]> wrote: medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Dear Paul, To follow Tom on the OP: Jordan's Libellus and the mid-13th cent Vitas Fratrum both contain a number of conversion accounts, which give a sense of motivation. Fr Tugwell is indeed helpful in pointing your attentions to Reginald, but Jordan––who has letters, sermons, a commentary, and the aforementioned Libellus to his name––is a better resource. In the spirit of sending along one's own publications on the subject, I've written a little on the significance of the Libellus and the 'ideals' of the early preachers in Steven Watts, 'Diabolical Doubt: 'Diabolical Doubt: The Peculiar Account of Brother Bernard's Demonic Possession in Jordan of Saxony's Libellus', in The Church and Doubt, eds. F. Andrews, C. Methuen, and A. Spicer, Studies in Church History 52 (Cambridge, 2016), 102-117 and early Dominican identity in ‘Dominic of Caleruega (d. 1221), Jordan of Saxony (d. 1237): The Formation of Dominican identity', in Sources of the Christian Self: A Cultural History of Christian Identity, eds. J. Houston and J. Zimmerman (Grand Rapids, 2018), 280-296. It is worth noting that the level of competition between the mendicant orders and even between the Cistercians and Dominicans in the early-going indicates that the orders, at least, recognised a commonality amongst prospective entrants. Jordan for his part, seems to have thought that Haymo of Faversham and his fellow English masters were as much 'use' as Friars Minor as Friars Preacher to the general wellbeing of the Church. Steve. On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Paul Chandler <[log in to unmask]> wrote: medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Tom, thank you very much for the reference to Reginald and your article. It's most helpful. I know Frances Andrews' excellent book but it doesn't quite address the question I have. She does show well what a turbulent state the "Augustinians" were in as a consequence of papal intervention to create this new order, with the constituent groups joining, withdrawing, fragmenting, arguing over rules, etc. What drew recruits into such uncertain futures, especially in view of the long-term hostilities which would eventually lead to the suppressions at Lyons II in 1274? -- Paul On 27 May 2018 at 20:42, Thomas Izbicki <[log in to unmask]> wrote: medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Paul, Simon Tugwell put me on to the role of Reginald of Orleans in recruiting to the Dominicans. Jordan of Saxony and Moneta of Cremona were among his recruits. I cite much of the literature about Reginald in: “The Vision of Reginald of Orléans and the Shaping of Dominican Identity,” Memorie Domenicane 87 (2017); 339-359. The early history of the Augustinians was complex with Alexander IV putting together a group of small communities. See Frances Andrews, The Other Friars. Tom Izbicki _____ From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Paul Chandler <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2018 5:07:00 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: [M-R] Recruitment to friars in 13th century medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Dear Colleagues Does anyone know of specific literature about motives for joining religious life in the 13th century, as there is, for example, about the motives for crusading? I'm hoping for something more specific than "conversion". Why choose one of the burgeoning number of religious orders rather than another? The Franciscans were booming, with their charismatic and already sainted founder and a radical evangelical way of life, so that attraction is obvious enough. The Dominicans, too, though Dominic himself seems to have been less of a draw card than -- what? their well-organised way of life, the allure of education, nothing succeeding like success, the attraction of the preaching ideal? The attractiveness of these orders is attested not only by their rapid expansion but also by donations and the rush of guilds and so on to associate themselves with their churches, but this does not happen with the Carmelites (and Augustinians) until after 1350 when they finally start attracting more money and patronage than the larger orders (Hervé Martin's book Les ordres mendiants en Bretagne (vers 1230-vers 1530) (1975) is very interesting here. But the 13th-century Carmelites, for example? How did they attract sufficient candidates to keep expanding internationally at a fairly rapid pace? The young order, like the Augustinian Friars, must have been racked by tensions as it transitioned from a rural eremitical life to an urban mendicant one, their dress was outlandish (they had to petition the pope to change it in 1287), their future was uncertain, there were no big names, they offered few educational opportunities for ambitious young men (they did not enter the universities until the end of the century). One has to wonder how much preaching they actually did, given their lack of qualification and the almost total lack of evidence they have left behind (there are next to no preaching manuscripts by Carmelites even from the 14th century, and virtually no writings at all from the 13th). Their friaries were nearly all on the wrong side of the tracks. It's unclear whether their substitution of their traditions about Elijah and Mary in place of the usual narrative of a charismatic founder would have functioned as a benefit or a liability. How did they, and the other smaller orders -- many of them doomed to extinction -- recruit somewhat substantial numbers of candidates? And what would have motivated them to join? I would be most grateful if anyone could point me to any discussion of these or related themes in the literature. -- Paul -- Paul Chandler, O.Carm. 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