Don’t you all have marking grids to guide you on this as we do, so it is quite clear except for the odd colleague who goes rogue!!
Kind Regards
Mrs Sherrie Green
MSc, BSc (Hons), RNT, PGDE, ADM, RM, RN.
Lecturer
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University of Essex
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From: External examiners discussion forum [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michael Coates
Sent: 22 May 2018 11:55
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Query regarding level 5 sampling for External Examiners
Indeed, that’s why we have the marking meetings (calibration) in which the definitions of these terms are agreed by all the tutors assessing the work. As this is a new process for us this year, we have the opportunity to establish a new culture of assessment. I appreciate this will be difficult in other institutions that have not made across the board changes to their assessment process.
Regarding the point about 40% or 59%, which do you do with those in this system. Frankly, that has to be on a student-by-students basis. There is no rule of 59% goes down to 58%, or 40% goes up to 42%. But given the new system applies to all assessed work then no-one should really be giving a piece of work a 59%, even in their heads. It’s either a 58% or it’s a 62%. I’d be lying if I said the loss of the _0% grade hasn’t displeased some colleagues.
Best wishes,
Michael.
Michael Coates | Head of Post Graduate Taught, Faculty of Arts & Humanities
UPCOMING PUBLICATION: Chapter 30, “The City, Urban Planning and Architecture” in Palgrave Handbook of Anarchism https://www.palgrave.com/gb/book/9783319756196
Manchester Metropolitan University | Cavendish Street | Manchester M15 6BG | United Kingdom
t: 0161 247 2913
m: 07470214001
From: External examiners discussion forum <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of "Berrais, Abbes" <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To: "Berrais, Abbes" <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, 22 May 2018 at 11:38
To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Query regarding level 5 sampling for External Examiners
I think the use of adjective and their definition is subjective and depends on the interpretation of each marker. What is creative in the Arts may be not in Engineering or Health, and the calibration of assessments of different programmes with different nature and skills will be difficult, if not impossible, to achieve in reality?
Regards,
Abbes
Dr Abbes Berrais
Ingenieure D’etat, MSc (Eng), PhD, PgCTL, MASCE, FHEA
Senior Lecturer in Structural Engineering
Programme Leader & Admissions Tutor for MSc Civil Engineering
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From: External examiners discussion forum [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michael Coates
Sent: 22 May 2018 11:16
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Query regarding level 5 sampling for External Examiners
We work on the basis of graduate outcomes, unit learning outcomes and unit assessment criteria, which are then articulated through the descriptors using groups of adjectives. For example adjectives used to describe work of first class quality but below 85% include: persuasive, sophisticated, original, ambitious, convincing, etc. Whereas higher that 85% would include: creative, insightful, illuminating, inspiring, exciting, authoritative, maverick.
Some of these may not, or could not, apply to all assignments, as one of the biggest universities in the UK, Manchester Met has huge variety of programmes. Therefore, calibration of our assessment within programmes takes place, to ensure all staff marking a given assignment are working with the same definitions of these adjectives/descriptors. This conversation then also takes place with all our Externals as well.
Michael.
Michael Coates | Head of Post Graduate Taught, Faculty of Arts & Humanities
UPCOMING PUBLICATION: Chapter 30, “The City, Urban Planning and Architecture” in Palgrave Handbook of Anarchism https://www.palgrave.com/gb/book/9783319756196
Manchester Metropolitan University | Cavendish Street | Manchester M15 6BG | United Kingdom
t: 0161 247 2913
m: 07470214001
From: "Vernon, Jeffrey" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Date: Tuesday, 22 May 2018 at 11:00
To: Michael Coates <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>, "[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Subject: RE: Query regarding level 5 sampling for External Examiners
@Michael Coates– what are the descriptors for a first? A high first? An outstanding first? This is what we are all arguing about.
According to the QAA, a BA/BSc graduate should have ‘conceptual understanding that enables the student to devise and sustain arguments, and/or to solve problems, using ideas and techniques, some of which are at the forefront of a discipline; to describe and comment upon particular aspects of current research, or equivalent advanced scholarship, in the discipline.’
If a student can’t do this, should we refuse them a degree of any class?
If they are solving problems using ideas at the forefront of the discipline, is this not the kind of thing we’d see in a publishable review article, or at least an abstract, provided that the presentation and argument are convincing?
If we are all admitting that our students can’t do these things, why are we giving them degrees?
From: External examiners discussion forum [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michael Coates
Sent: 22 May 2018 10:52
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Query regarding level 5 sampling for External Examiners
All,
It might be worth noting the system that has been introduced here at Manchester Met this year (attached). This would be employed in concert with grade descriptors, none of which indicate the work should be publishable. It’s our first year using it and there has been various “feedback” from staff. It will be interesting to see how our External Examiners respond to this in a few week’s time. And in their reports.
The key motivation however was to reduced uncertainty for students, especially around borderline grades. It also keeps all marks above 95%, this seems to, implicitly at least, indicate we should be using these grades. The idea that higher than 90% is publishable is ludicrous, though a prevalent opinion I have encountered, mainly amongst colleagues who have joined us from the “old universities”.
Best wishes,
Michael.
Michael Coates | Head of Post Graduate Taught, Faculty of Arts & Humanities
UPCOMING PUBLICATION: Chapter 30, “The City, Urban Planning and Architecture” in Palgrave Handbook of Anarchism https://www.palgrave.com/gb/book/9783319756196
Manchester Metropolitan University | Cavendish Street | Manchester M15 6BG | United Kingdom
t: 0161 247 2913
m: 07470214001
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From: External examiners discussion forum <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> on behalf of Georgina Cox <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Reply-To: Georgina Cox <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Date: Monday, 21 May 2018 at 19:55
To: "[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Subject: Re: Query regarding level 5 sampling for External Examiners
Dear Roy
I have been following it all with great interest. I would like to add that a student can get that 90+ % at that level. I have found maybe three and they were years apart! It is doable but not an everyday event.
Kind Regards
Georgie
Georgina Cox
Senior lecturer Adult Health
Nursing Associate Programme Leader &
Clinical Skills Lead
Faculty of Health & Education
The Burroughs
Hendon
London NW44BT
T: 02084116773
On 21 May 2018, at 19:40, Roy Hanney <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Is anyone recording this thread?
What I have seen is fascinating and worthy of capturing.
Sadly I haven’t been able to follow it all, I do think that it is worthy of recording.
Roy Hanney
On 21 May 2018, at 19:25, William Keenan <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
REJOICE!
On May 21, 2018 2:25 PM, "Vernon, Jeffrey" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Writing as what Lyn calls the anal fundament in this thread – I think I am alone in this – I am surprised that no-one expects to see assignments asking for creativity/novelty, and all the other stuff we claim to encourage when we write our FHEA portfolios. Example: level 5 team project in neuroscience, asking students to model a simple circuit. Students can find that their model captures features of epilepsy, and this leads to a testable prediction. They might never get round to testing it; but this is work that could easily form the basis of a conference abstract. I am not talking, by the way, of Imperial students; I ran this particular exercise with students who’d got B/C grades at A level.
Perhaps the real discussion we need to have is on the nature of learning outcomes, and whether they should aim for higher order learning. If I am wrong to expect (or hope for) an original response from students, what are we going to do when they all get first class degrees?
From: External examiners discussion forum [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of Andrea Cooper (ACooper)
Sent: 21 May 2018 14:09
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Query regarding level 5 sampling for External Examiners
Hear Hear Lyn!! Totally agree!!!
Andrea
________________________________
From: External examiners discussion forum <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> on behalf of Fawcett, Lyn <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Sent: 21 May 2018 13:59
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Query regarding level 5 sampling for External Examiners
Oh dear, I’m afraid we appear to be disappearing in the rarefied atmosphere of our own over pretentious fundaments.
Can we get real? Level5 students will have had just over two years of higher education experience and will generally be under 22 years of age and yet in order to gain marks from the upper end of the range that have been attributed to a particular assessment we are expecting them to produce publishable material. Surely in designing an assessment to meet particular learning outcomes and in creating a set of focused assessment rubrics we should be setting standards which are attainable by people in that particular group and allow the excellent student to get excellent marks.
It is time we moved away from the anal retentiveness of calling a piece of work first class when you’re only awarding 70%. Also we should have the courage to give 5% 10% or 15% to a piece of work which is appallingly poor.
As an external examiner all too often I find the marks are punched in the middle with very limited discrimination between the higher performing and the lower performing students. Coupled with this I find feedback comments saying “Excellent” which matches the terminology for 70+ in the marking scheme yet the students are given 60% or 65%
Go ahead, reward the top students, you know they deserve it and you will feel so much better for doing it.
As a footnote, having reviewed and read many conference papers and journal papers over 41 years as an academicI have found all too many to be significantly mediocre.
Lyn Fawcett
Retired
Senior Lecturer. Director of MSc Programnes
Ulster Business School
On 21 May 2018, at 13:42, Allen, Alastair <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
By gum, this has moved a long way from the original question about Level 5! Only in very rare cases do I see anything publishable from Level 5 students, but am quite happy to award grades in the 70-100% area if they fulfil the criteria of the Assessment. We are encouraged to use the full range of grades in all assessments.
Thanks,
Dr Alastair Allen
Principal Lecturer
Course Leader – BA Joint Honours Business Management & Marketing,
Nottingham Business School.
0115 848 3832
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From: External examiners discussion forum <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> On Behalf Of Mark Hooper
Sent: 21 May 2018 13:10
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Query regarding level 5 sampling for External Examiners
This cannot be right. An assessment given to students does not require an original contribution to knowledge. That defines publishable material!
Assessments are time and level limited pieces of work that should allow for 100% to be awarded. If they don’t then we are marking to a restricted marking spectrum.
At some point students will ask, what does 100 look like and then the courts will decide.
Mark
From: External examiners discussion forum [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Algirdas Pakštas
Sent: 19 May 2018 00:47
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Query regarding level 5 sampling for External Examiners
I'm sorry, colleagues, when student is getting a 80+ mark it must be of the publishable quality, 90+ "close to the publishing", etc...
And "It should not be possible to get 70 + for work that is merely descriptive, and the assessment should ask for more than this."
--
Prof Algirdas Pakštas, DrTech, FBCS, CITP, SMIEEE, MITHS
BCS APSG Chairman
On 14-May-18 17:09, Vernon, Jeffrey wrote:
The problem is that a final mark of 70 is a currency in the world of graduate employment and research. Too many marks over 70, and everyone will get a 1st. At my institution and department, a 70 requires elements of critique, or insight into the evidence; 80 must contain elements of originality; and 90 is near-publication standard work.
If a high proportion of students are reaching marks of 70 just by ‘complying’ with the assessment rubric, rather than demonstrating higher order learning (in the Bloom sense) then it might be argued that the assessment was not challenging enough. It should not be possible to get 70 + for work that is merely descriptive, and the assessment should ask for more than this.
From: External examiners discussion forum [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ian Pownall
Sent: 14 May 2018 16:45
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Query regarding level 5 sampling for External Examiners
I concur with the points raised by Geoffrey and Hazel.
My EE work transited from physical to online about 5 years ago. However I find myself having to ask, often repeatedly for accompanying cohort performance profiles from the institutions I work with so I can select the sample I wish to review.
I would also agree fully with Geoffrey's comments regarding the marking scale although in my experience of external examining, this has been changing over the past decade or so generally with a greater use of the >70% award.
One observation to add to the divergence of practice across institutions I am aware of though, my step son is studying at a renowned Russell Group institution, and I reviewed their assessment criteria recently. To achieve any outcome >80% required the generation of 'new knowledge' for a given submission. Speaking with a tutor concerned at that institution, they concurred that they rarely award anything over 80% as it needs to be 'perfect and publishable'. I strongly disagree with this gatekeeping and normative approach to marking.
Best Regards
Dr Ian Pownall
Senior Lecturer
Chester University Business School
________________________________
From: External examiners discussion forum <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> on behalf of Geoffrey Darnton <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Sent: 09 May 2018 08:42
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Query regarding level 5 sampling for External Examiners
I am used to seeing samples for all Level 5 modules/units.
I would make a couple more points:
1. The sample should include highest and lowest
2. When I attend the institution (some institutions now have an extremely bad habit of doing all EE moderation online) I expect to choose my own sample. Some institutions who have set up online EE access enable the EE to select their own sample (typically from Blackboard) - of course, to be able to do this sensible the proposed marks for each complete cohort should be available also.
The marking scale is usually 0-100%. It is extremely rare that I see marks of 100%. There seems to be a widespread assumption that 100% means it is perfect - no piece of work is 'perfect' and if the question is asked "could this work be improved?", the answer is invariably 'yes'. My approach is to look at the assessment, module/unit CATS, and level, and then ask "would it be reasonable to expect the student to have done any more given the parameters of the assessment?" - if the answer is 'no', the assessment should receive a very high mark. I have given 100% on a small number of occasions - I see that extremely rarely when I am doing EE work in institutions.
Some institutions also have an even worse habit of only selecting a small number of EEs to attend exam boards.
best wishes
Geoffrey Darnton
On 08/05/2018 20:50, Hazel Gant wrote:
Dear Di
At Portsmouth we have samples from all assessments from all units at all levels.
Best
Hazel Gant
Associate Head of the Marketing and Sales Subject Group
University of Portsmouth
On 8 May 2018, at 16:43, Diane Ellis <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Dear colleagues
At UAL we are currently reviewing our level 5 sampling size/selection, and would welcome feedback from External Examiners and colleagues at other institutions on the following;
Where you have External Examiners looking at level 5 work (or where you are an External Examiner), does the sample include;
a) assessment from all units;
b) a selection of units at level 5. If so, how is the selection determined?
Any feedback gratefully received.
Best, Di
Diane Ellis
UAL Quality Manager
Assessment and Quality | Academic Registry
Programme Manager
University Student Recruitment Programme (USRP)
University of the Arts London
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