All written language is a foreign language.

-----Original Message-----
From: Luke
Sent: May 12, 2018 4:11 PM
To: [log in to unmask]AC.UK
Subject: Re: on verbs in poetry

> The language of authenticity is  a learned behavior.

And Ashbery's "language"?

Luke

On 12 May 2018 at 20:10, Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

The language of authenticity is  a learned behavior.

-----Original Message-----
From: David Bircumshaw
Sent: May 12, 2018 2:32 PM
To: [log in to unmask]C.UK
Subject: Re: on verbs in poetry

Yes.Tristan. But for instance Peter Porter wrote poems about losing his wife. Surely those were equally authentic.

On 12 May 2018 at 18:56, Tristan Moss <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

She lost an adult son. Read the poem by Riley Luke. Here’s a link to it. https://www.lrb.co.uk/v34/n03/denise-riley/a-part-song

She just has a great way with words and the ability to choose just the right one. Of course, this adds to the authenticity of the voice. 

On 12 May 2018, at 18:31, Luke <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Not suggesting that you haven't! Just suggesting that one can't decide from your description, anymore than you can from knowing the Riley's (or at least, the author) lost a baby.

Luke

On 12 May 2018 at 18:29, Luke <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Surely it's impossible to say without reading it

> Tom Paulin, an otherwise fan, regarded it as 'adolescent'.

Luke

On 12 May 2018 at 09:02, David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

This interesting Tim, and knotty, but it has the feel of real discussion. One might almost say authentic :)

DH Lawrence could well be called authentic. Yet he was also rhetorical and pretentious, all those dark gods that had no place wandering the streets of an imagination made a bus ride from Nottingham.

Is Peter Reading's 'C' authentic? A hundred pieces of prose behaving like poems each a hundred words long written in a style au naturel but as artificial and calculated as a wedding song by Spenser. A fake fiction about cancer by a man who once had it and another time would die from it. Tom Paulin, an otherwise fan, regarded it as 'adolescent'.

Are the best-selling Birthday Letters authentic?? Is Maya Angelou ditto?

Best

Dave

On 11 May 2018 at 11:44, Tim Allen <0000002899e7d020-dmarc-reques[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Yes exactly Luke, the 'how' is still missing, at least in the sense of describing a 'how' that was special to Riley. I used the word 'authentic' because of its innate problems - it is one of the most difficult terms to use when applied to the arts, but nevertheless I think my use of it in the context of Riley is 'authentic'.

Perceptions of and identifying authenticity in music is an even more contentious - the process that leads from authentic feeling and expression first to model/form then to simulacrum and finally to soulless golem (e.g. x factor or whatever) is almost impossible to untangle. 

Cheers

Tim

On 11 May 2018, at 02:03, Luke wrote:

I'm still missing a how. No-one is innately authentic, so how does one go about it? Incidentally. I was recently listening to Kurt Cobain, of Nirvana, ha, and it struck me so, also. So not limited to poetry, anyway!