May I politely disagree, Jamie? I mean isn't authenticity arguably one of the more philosophically robust aesthetic terms? It could be more difficult to recognize than e.g. pretense, or sincerity,, but, well I'm reminded of an intro to Critical Theory I've read that suggests ideological critique involves spending time with its ideologues, enjoying the local narcotic, etc..

Cheers,

Luke

On 13 May 2018 at 17:29, Jaime Robles <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

I too find authenticity a troubling term, Tim. Not only because it seems antithetical to the basic concept of craft in art, but also because I’m not sure HOW or even WHY it applies to art. I can see the point of it in legal and political discussions, and even there it seems a shaky criterion. Part of the pro-Trump follower's affirmation of their preferred leader is that he is authentic. He says what he believes, etc. (little of which is true, of course). And much of Bernie Sanders appeal (v. Clinton) was around issues of authenticity. Too often just sticking to one’s perceptions (accurate or not) in a loud and insistent way is seen as authenticity, even honesty. It’s also undeniable that their followers feel loyalty, and that’s authentic. Though what engenders that feeling may be of questionable ethics. And when talking about authenticity we are talking ethics.

I think it’s something I’d prefer to cross of the lists of artistic criteria, simply because authenticity lies, like beauty, in the eye of the beholder.

If one has a feeling it’s authentic, period. 

How, or if one even should express that feeling accurately, is another issue. I believe that when someone says So’n’So is authentic, it means, simply, "I understand what that person felt; they have conveyed it accurately for me”.

J

jaimerobles.com

______________________________

QS: Let’s return to poetics.

JR: When did we leave?

—From the conversation between Quinta Slef and Joan Retallack, The Poethical Wager

On May 11, 2018, at 3:44 AM, Tim Allen <0000002899e7d020-dmarc-[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Yes exactly Luke, the 'how' is still missing, at least in the sense of describing a 'how' that was special to Riley. I used the word 'authentic' because of its innate problems - it is one of the most difficult terms to use when applied to the arts, but nevertheless I think my use of it in the context of Riley is 'authentic'.

Perceptions of and identifying authenticity in music is an even more contentious - the process that leads from authentic feeling and expression first to model/form then to simulacrum and finally to soulless golem (e.g. x factor or whatever) is almost impossible to untangle. 

Cheers

Tim

On 11 May 2018, at 02:03, Luke wrote:

I'm still missing a how. No-one is innately authentic, so how does one go about it? Incidentally. I was recently listening to Kurt Cobain, of Nirvana, ha, and it struck me so, also. So not limited to poetry, anyway!