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Of course I know Paridiso is populated with the approved Old Testament Jews, but If you can’t see the difference between medieval prejudice and Pound’s racialism, Mark, then the ‘rot’ isn’t in my court. An obvious difference is that Dante didn’t advocate pogroms and Pound did. As a medievalist, your remarks about Dante’s expedient use of his own vernacular are surprising, as well as your ideas about the Commedia being a hymn to ‘papal Catholicism’. Having fully endorsed your remark about continuing to read those whose politics we have good reason to recoil from, I can’t see why you should write such an irate post. Jamie > On 4 Mar 2018, at 23:30, Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Spare me, Jamie. You know this is rot. Let's just say that Dante was more a fan of St Dominic than I am. And note that all those Jews in Paradiso are old testament figures--every one--who played a part in the coming of Christ. These are the Jews generally accepted in the middle ages, the ones who appear on the doors of cathedrals. Their intercession never stopped a single pogrom. > > I love Dante, and I spent part of my life as a medievalist. I enter a museum or a great church and I'm overwhelmed by Christian art and the myth itself, but I'm also appalled by it and furious that I've been made to feel double. Pound as well. If the current fascists in Italy called themselves the Orange League as their favored appropriation they would no more own William of Orange than they own Pound. > > I may not contain multitudes, but I do contain dualities. Hell, it's a requisite for thought, uncomfortable as that may be, Jamie. > > And that's all I have to say on the subject. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jamie McKendrick <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Mar 4, 2018 5:56 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Ezra Pound never retracted anything & got > > Mark, I quite see Pound’s obnoxious politics are no reason to stop reading or learning from him. Still, I know no evidence to suggest Dante chose his own vernacular rather than Provencal for reasons of political expediency. As you know, he writes a long passage in Provencal for Arnaut Daniel in Purgatory . And it’s a strange hymn to ‘papal catholicism’ - that puts a Pope in hell and elevates Beatrice to a central role in the universe. Dante was also keen to restrain the temporal power of the Papacy. Many of Dante’s views may well be uncongenial and he’s not without prejudice but for all of that his heaven has a large Jewish population, and he doesn’t come close to the kind of bigotry to be met with in Pound. > Jamie > > > >> On 4 Mar 2018, at 21:21, Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >> A couple of things. First, I don't know anyone who has "forgiven" Pound, but I o know a lot of poets who nonetheless learn from him (which, nota bene, is not the same as revering). >> >> But let's for the moment consider Dante. He thought about writing the Commedia in Provencal, the language of the avant garde back then, but changed his mind among other things because Provencal speakers were being slaughtered and their culture bombed back to the stone age. So instead he wrote his hymn to the papal catholicism that experienced no remorse about the slaughter of among others poets and their supporters, not to mention hundreds of thousands with no names, and along the way he imagined horrible punishment for those who disagreed with his politics. Yet we read him and never ask if he retracted his views. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]> >> Sent: Mar 4, 2018 3:39 PM >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: Re: Ezra Pound never retracted anything & got >> >> clean away with it. He is still revered on the merits of his poetry but the economic & political views are seldom questioned. Pound of course was not alone in being a supporter of right wing dictatorships. PW Lewis & Roy Campbell & others sang from the same hymn sheets & also got literary veneration. It is too easy to say they simply were naive or of their time & all knew what was involved. Indeed WB Yeats veered to the right & in A Vision outlined his leanings toward a fascist line. Democracy mattered little to the older Yeats who would have embraced a dictatorship in Ireland. >> >> It was forgiving for Zukofsky to renew contact with Pound & the many other writers who also became part of his circle. The texts of the radio broadcast speak for themselves as well as The Cantos. These cannot be dismissed or seen as a mere error of judgement. This was no micro war but a global scale macro war in which Ezra took sides. His role was active & far from passive but his writings seem to come before his fascism. Many on here who are happy to tolerate Ezra Pound as a poet know full well the history of World War Two. >> >> So Casa Pound today are a well organised party based on a vocational brand of organisation & with a Traditionalist philosophy. Their membership goes across age groups & claims to offer ‘a better society’. It is a big tent party in American terms & Ezra Pound is an inspiration. How they will fare with the Italian voters is as yet not clear but 5 Star & the Northern League may well end up in coalition. Reason may prevail but the polls are worrying to democrats & we must review our stance on Ezra Pound. To turn a blind eye is no longer enough nor are the usual three day wonder street theatre loved on these islands. >> >> Pound must not get off the hook & his role in WW2 must not be off the agenda. Casa Pound may be a call to cast a cold eye on Ezra & simply face the facts of his politics. The millions who died deserve huge respect a lot more than Ezra Pound. >> >> Maybe the era of Pound has to end & veneration of him should simply stop? The current European swing to the hard right cannot be ignored & the debunking of liberal & socialist values must be countered. Otherwise we could sleepwalk into a third macro war in Europe or a Syrian or Balkan wars calamity. >> >> sc >> >> Sent from AOL Mobile Mail >> Get the new AOL app: mail.mobile.aol.com >> >> On Sunday, 4 March 2018, Jamie McKendrick <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >> Hi Sean, >> I first noticed Casa Pound about a couple of years ago, and haven’t heard it mentioned since. I’m not sure how amazed Pound would have been though, as he clearly nursed inflated ambitions to be a political spokesman, and despite the verbal disavowal of anti-semitism (‘suburban prejudice’ - thereby offloading the responsibility for it onto a blameless site) which Ginsberg claims to have witnessed, there’s no sign that Pound really abjured the views he stated in his radio broadcasts as well as in the Cantos. >> Jamie >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On 3 Mar 2018, at 11:55, Sean Carey <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >> Few would have foreseen Casa Pound founded in Italy in 2003 & even Ezra himself would have been amazed. If they make any impact in the Italian election Pound will be back in the land he adopted & is buried in Venice. >> >> I note they have accepted his views & the name invokes him. It all of course is a sign of real political sea changes that should worry us all & clearly the post World War Two era is over. The obvious contempt for all the established parties & shared values of liberalism is now a threat. It also is a rejection of socialism of all hues for a Darwinist populism. Simple solutions to complex problems is the Casa Pound M.O. & a lot of young members. >> >> Ezra Pound was forgiven by many poets including Louis Zukofsky of course on the merits of his poetry. Did the forgiveness allow Ezra off the hook & Casa Pound are either a blip or a surge of Italian fascist movements? >> >> Pound is highly regarded & a key poet in the A list of the legends. Just wondering how others view the Pound ethos given Casa Pound emerging? >> >> Cheers >> >> sc >> >> >> Sent from AOL Mobile Mail >> Get the new AOL app: mail.mobile.aol.com