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Hi Robert,
   There may well be an element of heightened competitiveness once books are up for sale, but I think competition goes with the territory – it’s there in Catullus (whose poems I happen to have been looking at) in a barbed and brilliant style. Your point about classical pastoral holds too. And there among the Elizabethans. And, yes, we see it in quite extreme form during the Romantic period.
  Could just be ignorance on my part, but I’m resistant to the general application of Marxian concepts of commodification to the arts. I accept that changes occur when poetry, in this case, enters the market though these changes may be superficial. And I also consider poetry quite capable of simultaneously playing with and resisting (favoured word in ‘avant’ discourse) and transcending (suspect word) those pressures, as I’d think Pope does as well. But then I suspect Marx and Adorno, from whom much of the talk about commodification derives, were both well aware of this.
Jamie
 
From: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">Hampson, R
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2018 3:38 PM
To: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Amazing Discovery
 

It is interesting that you take this potential for conflict back to The Dunciad. It is tempting to try and link it, then, to the commodification of literature - the turn from a patronage model to a commercial model. I tried to imagine responses to the introduction of the sonnet into English poetry at the Tudor court - and was thinking of the earlier social separation of court poets and the various anons of folk culture. Presumably the rivalries between court poets weren't about aesthetics.

 

I wondered also about the hostile response to early Shakespeare from the Cambridge school of his day ...and how the competitions between poets in classical pastoral might be figured into this.

 

 

Robert

 

 


From: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Jamie McKendrick <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 26 January 2018 15:25:08
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Amazing Discovery
 
Beats me! But if were pressed for a better reply I’d say poetry has always been a bitterly contested zone from way before The Dunciad. But as I’m not in favour of spurious divisions, on the thread about the Rebecca Watts article – I think David and Michael both put eloquent arguments for and against it. Without getting into whether she might have done it with a less personalised attack on Hollie McNish, in the end I’m more of the view that if it’s being billed as poetry, it should be looked at as such. And so it doesn’t get a free pass (as in ‘category error’) and an exemption from ‘literary criticism’.
   Just with reference to the Ted Hughes Prize (mentioned on the other thread) which has been won by Kate Tempest and Hollie McNish, I have the impression it was set up to favour poetry that mixes-in other media – spoken voice, radio, visual – so whatever your take on prizes in general, you might consider there’s a point in having one that has looser and more inclusive boundaries, rather than it being some kind of media ‘game’ as I think was suggested.
   (As for Don Paterson, rebuked by Watts for a volte-face on this issue, as editor for Picador there may well be commercial reasons regarding the survival of a list for favouring at least some poetry that will sell, but my impression of him is that he does state his positions forcefully but then, like all of us, is at liberty to change his mind and state a different view. It’s presumptuous to claim someone changing their mind is dishonest. Otherwise what would be the point of debate? I’m pretty sure, for example, his views on ‘avant-garde’ poetry have altered since his notorious introduction to The New British Poetry. I have a number of strong objections to his ideas about translating poetry – and have expressed them in print – but I’m still grateful for the fact that he articulates them so forcefully and along the way offers quite a few acute observations about the art.)
 
Jamie
 
From: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">Hampson, R
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2018 12:45 PM
To: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Amazing Discovery
 

How on earth could that have happened?

 

 

Robert


From: British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Jamie McKendrick <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 25 January 2018 19:37:31
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Amazing Discovery
 
Into ever smaller pieces.
J

> On 25 Jan 2018, at 19:29, Peter Riley <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> The Guardian is able to reveal that  (1) There is a poetry world.  (2) It is split.  Exclusive.