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Another way of looking at this would be to doubt the objectivity of any of these bipartisan assumptions. Even if the criteria for Tim’s reading site is mainly conditioned by the idea that ‘a’ is ‘a’ because it is not ‘b’, it would be a mistake to assume most people who read and enjoy poetry feel obliged to take any notice of these categories. Jamie > On 5 Jan 2018, at 16:16, Peter Riley <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Because the distinction avant-garde /not avant-garde was not taken as an indicator of quality but more objectively. And because I hovered between one and the other, as did others. What’s A-G about most of the poetry in those years of John James, John Hall, John Riley, Tim Longville, Douglas Oliver? I don’t think any of the poets involved would have liked to be called avant-garde or experimental, They were clearer that they were not what is now called mainstream, but that was largely a result of adversarial treatment by others. JH Prynne sent his poem on the death of Paul Celan to The Times as a news item, and was surprised and dismayed that they rejected it. > > pr > > > > > > On 5 Jan 2018, at 3:20 pm, David Lace <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Tim, I always assumed Peter was an avantgarde poet for the reasons you give, that the poets who like him are among those associated with the avantgarde. If that is so, I wonder why they like him, then? Maybe they are more catholic in their poetic tastes than I assumed. > > > > > > -----------------Original Message------------------ > > Tim Allen wrote: > > It depends on who is doing the talking David. While I suppose I am one side of a certain line the term covers such a wide variety of different poetic practises these days that the only real pointer it gives is to a kind of community of names, not tribal exactly but similar. As I've said here before I don't particularly mind what my stuff gets called but I am interested when people try to eek out particulars. In some respects I don't think some of my work is any closer to the avant than a poet such as Peter Riley, but it depends on what work we are referring to. Peter Riley says he is not an avant-garde poet and I suppose he is right, but the 'community of names' he is associated with, and who tend to be the ones who appreciate his work most, definitely include many who get so labelled etc. > > Cheers > > Tim