Dear all,

It's nice to see how many people are interested in the results of the German-Tunisian excavation in Carthage. As a member of the team - though not among those who were working on the C14 dates - I can tell you that the final publication of the work at the Rue Ibn Chabâat site is in preparation and will hopefully be available in 2020. However, there is a small preliminary article currently in press that will also give a short overview of the excavation results, including the C14 dates, which is based on a presentation held by the excavators at the IX Colloquio Internacional del Centro de Estudios Fenicios e Punicos 2015 in Almeria. As soon as it is out, I will let Pete know.

All best,

Marion

On 6 December 2017 at 15:31, Francisco J. Núñez <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Dear all,

since I’ve been mentioned in this context (thank you for that, btw), I’d like to address some aspects before drawing any conclusions:

1. What does the materials in association look like, especially from a sequential point of view?

2. What is the time range represented by the sigmas of the dating?

3. Is it a single date or the average of a set of them?

4. If the second option is the case, do all they come from the same layer/context?

5. What are the organic samples from which the datings emanated?

From the text in German none of these questions can be answered. I think we should wait until the report has been published.

Cheers,

Paco

Enviado desde mi iPhone

El 6 dic 2017, a las 13:24, Meir Edrey <[log in to unmask]> escribió:

Hi all, 

Although a 9th cent. dating to the foundation of Carthage is possible, and is currently supported by both the previous dating (Docter et al) and the above-cited German dating, I'd like to reference NÚÑEZ, F.J. 2014. The lowest levels at Bir Massouda and the foundation of Carthage. A Levantine perspective. Carthage Studies 8: 7-46. who rightfully takes a cautious approach to C14 dating. 

As for earlier occupants at the site... As far as I know, the earliest levels display a typical Phoenician material culture, suggesting this was a newly founded settlement. Nevertheless, I have argued in the past that one does not simply land in a site and occupies it without earlier intel. Meaning that earlier expeditions could have been sent to search for a suitable location and camp there for a short while. 

Best, 

Meir

Meir Edrey, PhD

Teaching fellow, Tel Aviv University 

Post-doctoral researcher, Haifa University

2017-12-02 14:50 GMT+02:00 Fatma Dahmani <[log in to unmask]>:

Hi all

The report published by the Deutsches Archäeologisches Institut considers that the carbon dating is in perfect accordance with what is commonly known so far. So nothing "groundbreaking"


"Die Ursprünge der Ruinen gehen jedoch bis in die Zeit der mythischen Prinzessin Dido zurück, die Karthago im 9. Jahrhundert v. Chr. gegründet haben soll. Bei Ausgrabungen wurden frühpunische Häuser gefunden, die über C14-Datierungen in genau diese Zeit datiert werden konnten"

https://www.dainst.org/dai/presse/nachricht/-/asset_publisher/XV2P83pNHjQz/content/karthago-ist-um-eine-archaologische-attraktion-reicher-einweihung-des-quartier-didon

Regards

2017-12-02 10:24 GMT+01:00 Pete Missingham <[log in to unmask]>:

Matt & Dexter,

  I've written to Ralf Bockmann of the DAI Rome, who is the site director for any information he may be prepared to release. Unless he's one of the ten or so German subscribers to our email group, he probably won't know me from a bar of soap. 

Thanks Marion!

Pete

On Saturday, 2 December 2017, 9:20, Dexter Hoyos <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Hi, Matt,

Yes, I’m sure you’re right about both the carbon dating and pre-existing occpation.

Settlers quite often barged in to displace established, but weaker, residents (e.g., in the Americas, Mexico City and Cusco). There’s evidence, I believe, of settlements existing on more than one of the Seven Hills before the creation of Rome—something dimly remembered by Romans in the mythological form of Evander’s Pallantium. The Byrsa site of Carthage may well have been appealing enough to local Libyans as safe, close to the sea and the lake, and supplied with fresh water, not that later Carthaginian traditions would want to concede that.

Carbon dating is supposed to be subject to significant variation in estimates, although I am not scientific enough to grasp the details. I expect it depends on the material being analysed. Twenty to 30 years, or maybe 50-70, are probably to be allowed for any estimate, and a c.-d. of circa 850 would as you say cover the later half of the century. If so, the finds just reported could still be early Carthaginian.

     Regards,

     Dexter  

     

On 2/12/2017, 7:45 PM, "Matthew Boyle" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Hi Dexter / All,

To be fair...I'm a little hesitant to call this unique (in my opinion), given the proximity of the carbon dating to the traditional founding date of Carthage. If it were more than lets say, 100 or 200 years difference, then (personally) I'd be a bit a little more available to call this groundbreaking. Unless I am reading this wrong (it is 03:37 AM in the states) we have seen in places like Rome where they have a traditional "founding dates" (or sources have tried to claim specific dates) that there has been previous settlements / inhabitants upon further excavations. 

In this case...is it not fair to say that even if Carthage WAS truly founded around 815 BC, that there probably was previous inhabitants (probably berber) given the location? 

Just my two cents :)

Thanks,

Matt

On Saturday, December 2, 2017 3:26 AM, Dexter Hoyos <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

This is highly unusual, if not unique. Almost by regulation, ancient datings for such events are scaled down by modern scholars. Gjerstadt founded Rome circa 450 BC. Gades and Utica are currently dated to the late 9th C., like Carthage’s Timaean date. Next thing, we’ll find that Aeneas really did found the city on the Palatine, or that his grandsons, not distant descendants, were Rom&Rem … 

     Much appreciated,

     Dexter 

On 2/12/2017, 4:24 AM, "Mail-list for Phoenician/Punic research in the UK on behalf of Pete Missingham" <[log in to unmask] on behalf of [log in to unmask]> wrote:

Remains of houses and blacksmithing workshops have been found dating to before the traditional founding of Carthage. The news comes from the German expedition who have been digging at the site now for four years. Carbon 14 dates from the stratigraphy indicate a likely date of 850bc. This discovery raises more questions than answers.

I don't have an official source for this. I'm not even sure who is leading the dig there. If anybody has access to more information, please let me know.

In the meantime, this news comes from Walid Haloies in the 'Histoire et archéologie du monde phénicien et carthaginois' facebook group.

Regards,

Pete

--

Fatma Dahmani

--

Dr. phil. Marion Bolder-Boos

Technische Universität Darmstadt
Fachbereich Architektur
FG Klassische Archäologie
El-Lissitzky-Str. 1
64287 Darmstadt
Tel. 06151-1622477
Fax 06151-1622558