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Thank you, and congratulations on your work. Please add one more to the list of interested parties! Phil Schmitz Eastern Michigan University On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 5:53 AM, Marion Boos <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Dear all, > > It's nice to see how many people are interested in the results of the > German-Tunisian excavation in Carthage. As a member of the team - though > not among those who were working on the C14 dates - I can tell you that the > final publication of the work at the Rue Ibn Chabâat site is in preparation > and will hopefully be available in 2020. However, there is a small > preliminary article currently in press that will also give a short overview > of the excavation results, including the C14 dates, which is based on a > presentation held by the excavators at the IX Colloquio Internacional del > Centro de Estudios Fenicios e Punicos 2015 in Almeria. As soon as it is > out, I will let Pete know. > > All best, > Marion > > On 6 December 2017 at 15:31, Francisco J. Núñez <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> since I’ve been mentioned in this context (thank you for that, btw), I’d >> like to address some aspects before drawing any conclusions: >> >> 1. What does the materials in association look like, especially from a >> sequential point of view? >> >> 2. What is the time range represented by the sigmas of the dating? >> >> 3. Is it a single date or the average of a set of them? >> >> 4. If the second option is the case, do all they come from the same >> layer/context? >> >> 5. What are the organic samples from which the datings emanated? >> >> From the text in German none of these questions can be answered. I think >> we should wait until the report has been published. >> >> Cheers, >> Paco >> >> Enviado desde mi iPhone >> >> El 6 dic 2017, a las 13:24, Meir Edrey <[log in to unmask]> escribió: >> >> Hi all, >> Although a 9th cent. dating to the foundation of Carthage is possible, >> and is currently supported by both the previous dating (Docter et al) and >> the above-cited German dating, I'd like to reference NÚÑEZ, F.J. 2014. The >> lowest levels at Bir Massouda and the foundation of Carthage. A Levantine >> perspective. Carthage Studies 8: 7-46. who rightfully takes a cautious >> approach to C14 dating. >> >> As for earlier occupants at the site... As far as I know, the earliest >> levels display a typical Phoenician material culture, suggesting this was a >> newly founded settlement. Nevertheless, I have argued in the past that one >> does not simply land in a site and occupies it without earlier intel. >> Meaning that earlier expeditions could have been sent to search for a >> suitable location and camp there for a short while. >> >> Best, >> Meir >> >> Meir Edrey, PhD >> Teaching fellow, Tel Aviv University >> Post-doctoral researcher, Haifa University >> >> 2017-12-02 14:50 GMT+02:00 Fatma Dahmani <[log in to unmask]>: >> >>> Hi all >>> The report published by the Deutsches Archäeologisches Institut >>> considers that the carbon dating is in perfect accordance with what is >>> commonly known so far. So nothing "groundbreaking" >>> >>> >>> "Die Ursprünge der Ruinen gehen jedoch bis in die Zeit der mythischen >>> Prinzessin Dido zurück, die Karthago im 9. Jahrhundert v. Chr. gegründet >>> haben soll. Bei Ausgrabungen wurden frühpunische Häuser gefunden, die über >>> C14-Datierungen in genau diese Zeit datiert werden konnten" >>> >>> https://www.dainst.org/dai/presse/nachricht/-/asset_publishe >>> r/XV2P83pNHjQz/content/karthago-ist-um-eine-archaologische-a >>> ttraktion-reicher-einweihung-des-quartier-didon >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> 2017-12-02 10:24 GMT+01:00 Pete Missingham <[log in to unmask]>: >>> >>>> Matt & Dexter, >>>> I've written to Ralf Bockmann of the DAI Rome, who is the site >>>> director for any information he may be prepared to release. Unless he's one >>>> of the ten or so German subscribers to our email group, he probably won't >>>> know me from a bar of soap. >>>> >>>> Thanks Marion! >>>> >>>> Pete >>>> >>>> >>>> On Saturday, 2 December 2017, 9:20, Dexter Hoyos < >>>> [log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi, Matt, >>>> Yes, I’m sure you’re right about both the carbon dating and >>>> pre-existing occpation. >>>> >>>> Settlers quite often barged in to displace established, but weaker, >>>> residents (e.g., in the Americas, Mexico City and Cusco). There’s evidence, >>>> I believe, of settlements existing on more than one of the Seven Hills >>>> before the creation of Rome—something dimly remembered by Romans in the >>>> mythological form of Evander’s Pallantium. The Byrsa site of Carthage may >>>> well have been appealing enough to local Libyans as safe, close to the sea >>>> and the lake, and supplied with fresh water, not that later Carthaginian >>>> traditions would want to concede that. >>>> >>>> Carbon dating is supposed to be subject to significant variation in >>>> estimates, although I am not scientific enough to grasp the details. I >>>> expect it depends on the material being analysed. Twenty to 30 years, or >>>> maybe 50-70, are probably to be allowed for any estimate, and a c.-d. of >>>> circa 850 would as you say cover the later half of the century. If so, the >>>> finds just reported could still be early Carthaginian. >>>> Regards, >>>> Dexter >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2/12/2017, 7:45 PM, "Matthew Boyle" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Hi Dexter / All, >>>> >>>> To be fair...I'm a little hesitant to call this unique (in my opinion), >>>> given the proximity of the carbon dating to the traditional founding date >>>> of Carthage. If it were more than lets say, 100 or 200 years difference, >>>> then (personally) I'd be a bit a little more available to call this >>>> groundbreaking. Unless I am reading this wrong (it is 03:37 AM in the >>>> states) we have seen in places like Rome where they have a traditional >>>> "founding dates" (or sources have tried to claim specific dates) that there >>>> has been previous settlements / inhabitants upon further excavations. >>>> >>>> In this case...is it not fair to say that even if Carthage WAS truly >>>> founded around 815 BC, that there probably was previous inhabitants >>>> (probably berber) given the location? >>>> >>>> Just my two cents :) >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Matt >>>> >>>> >>>> On Saturday, December 2, 2017 3:26 AM, Dexter Hoyos < >>>> [log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> This is highly unusual, if not unique. Almost by regulation, ancient >>>> datings for such events are scaled down by modern scholars. Gjerstadt >>>> founded Rome circa 450 BC. Gades and Utica are currently dated to the late >>>> 9th C., like Carthage’s Timaean date. Next thing, we’ll find that Aeneas >>>> really did found the city on the Palatine, or that his grandsons, not >>>> distant descendants, were Rom&Rem … >>>> Much appreciated, >>>> Dexter >>>> >>>> On 2/12/2017, 4:24 AM, "Mail-list for Phoenician/Punic research in the >>>> UK on behalf of Pete Missingham" <[log in to unmask] on behalf of >>>> [log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Remains of houses and blacksmithing workshops have been found dating to >>>> before the traditional founding of Carthage. The news comes from the German >>>> expedition who have been digging at the site now for four years. Carbon 14 >>>> dates from the stratigraphy indicate a likely date of 850bc. This discovery >>>> raises more questions than answers. >>>> >>>> I don't have an official source for this. I'm not even sure who is >>>> leading the dig there. If anybody has access to more information, please >>>> let me know. >>>> >>>> In the meantime, this news comes from Walid Haloies in the 'Histoire et >>>> archéologie du monde phénicien et carthaginois' facebook group. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Pete >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> *Fatma Dahmani* >>> >> > > > -- > Dr. phil. Marion Bolder-Boos > > Technische Universität Darmstadt > Fachbereich Architektur > FG Klassische Archäologie > El-Lissitzky-Str. 1 > <https://maps.google.com/?q=El-Lissitzky-Str.+1+64287+Darmstadt&entry=gmail&source=g> > 64287 Darmstadt > <https://maps.google.com/?q=El-Lissitzky-Str.+1+64287+Darmstadt&entry=gmail&source=g> > Tel. 06151-1622477 > Fax 06151-1622558 > -- Philip C. Schmitz Professor of History Eastern Michigan University