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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture I'm fairly sure that happened at Wells Cathedral, but can I remember who preceded St Andrew? No .... Jane On 24 October 2017 17:31:52 BST, Thomas Izbicki <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and >culture > >A related question: Is there evidence of changes of dedications, >replacing an Anglo-Saxon saint with "another", or at least adding >another patron? >Tom Izbicki > >________________________________ >From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious >culture <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Susan Ridyard ><[log in to unmask]> >Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 10:17:52 AM >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: Re: [M-R] normans vs anglo saxon saints > >medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and >culture >Hello all > >Yes, I wrote a lot about this in the article Maddy cites and in my book >The Royal Saints of Anglo-Saxon England. In both cases I was trying >(with the arrogance of a 20-something-year-old) to dismantle the >"everyone knows that Normans were hostile to Anglo-Saxon saints" idea. >In very general terms I would stand by my argument that Norman >churchmen tended to appropriate and adapt the English saints who were >an important foundation of their churches' identity and power. But it's >also very clear now that such generalizations need to be supplemented >by a more nuanced approach based on in-depth study of individual >churches -- as in Jay Rubinstein's excellent article. > >Sue > >On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 2:22 AM, Madeleine Gray ><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> >wrote: >medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and >culture > >On the other hand ... > >Susan Ridyard is quite critical of this idea: see ‘“Condigna >veneratio”: Post-Conquest Attitudes to the >Saints of the Anglo-Saxons’, Anglo-Norman Studies, 9: 179-206. > >She points out that, although St Etheldreda and her associated female >royal saints at Ely initially >served as a rallying-point for the Anglo-Saxon resistance, they were >subsequently >appropriated to defend the rights of the Norman monks against king and >bishop. >Meanwhile at Bury St Edmunds a French abbot welcomed the Normans but >used >the cult of St Edmund to defend his position. Similar patterns could be >found at St >Albans, Malmesbury (St Aldhelm) and Durham (St Cuthbert). > >Also, Mary Swan has pointed to the number of Old English manuscript >saints’ lives that survive in post- >Conquest copies and suggested a largely female religious readership >(Swan, Mary. 2005. ‘Imagining a Readership for Post-Conquest Old >English Manuscripts’. in Stephen Kelly and John J. Thompson (eds), >Imagining the Book (Turnhout: Brepols), pp. 145-58; Swan and Elaine >Treharne (eds). 2000. Rewriting Old English in the Twelfth Century >(Cambridge: Cambridge University Press). > >I can't find my reference to Robert Bartlett’s study of the cults of >Irish, Welsh and Scottish saints in twelfth-century England - he notes >the number of rewritten >versions of their vitae but argues that this was generally for literary >rather than >cultural reasons. There was what he calls a spirit of ‘smug cultural >superiority’ but he >suggests that this demonstrates not general disapproval of Celtic >barbarism but a >critique of badly-written Latin. > >Maddy > >--- >Prof. Madeleine Gray >University of South Wales >http://www.heritagetortoise.co.uk<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.heritagetortoise.co.uk&data=02%7C01%7Ctizbicki%40LIBRARIES.RUTGERS.EDU%7Cdc6c0b6893ce411e72c008d51aeadb05%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C636444518360432580&sdata=fT4CHyvBwXcRgLTpBfAc2WSD5MB56tYMAuY1NeV26Vc%3D&reserved=0> >http://twitter.com/heritagepilgrim<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fheritagepilgrim&data=02%7C01%7Ctizbicki%40LIBRARIES.RUTGERS.EDU%7Cdc6c0b6893ce411e72c008d51aeadb05%7Cb92d2b234d35447093ff69aca6632ffe%7C1%7C0%7C636444518360432580&sdata=6PxkUwOsYJF4wjUxp39QPvSRDFgVCBHByEYWz3XvFfU%3D&reserved=0> >'Lle taw Duw nid doeth yngan' (St Fagan, allegedly) > > >On 24/10/2017 07:13, Ihnat, K. (Kati) wrote: > >medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and >culture > >Richard Pfaff in The Liturgy in Medieval England (Cambridge, 2009) >mentions some of them, though he's also skeptical about this whole >Lanfrancian purge idea (explicitly in: R. W. Pfaff "Lanfranc's Supposed >Purge of the Anglo-Saxon Calendar." In Warriors and Churchmen in the >High Middle Ages: Essays Presented to Karl Leyser, edited by Timothy >Reuter, 95-108. London: Hambledon, 1992). > >But there is some evidence of skepticism and liturgical change, >described in: > > >Jay Rubenstein, "Liturgy against History: The Competing Visions of >Lanfranc and Eadmer." Speculum 74 (1999): 271-301. > > > >T. A. Heslop, "The Canterbury Calendars and the Norman Conquest." In >Canterbury and the Norman Conquest: Churches, Saints and Scholars >1066-1109, edited by R. Eales and R. Sharpe, 53-85. London: Hambledon >Press, 1995. > > >Paul Hayward has written a lot about the transition from the >perspective of local saints cults, as well (also taking a nuanced >position). > > >More generally, there's: > >Hugh Thomas, The English and the Normans: Ethnic Hostility, >Assimilation and Identity 1066-1220. Oxford: OUP, 2005 - which >mentions attitudes towards saints as well. > > >Hope that helps! > >Kati > >_________________________________________________________________________________________ >Kati Ihnat | Lecturer in Medieval History | Radboud University >Nijmegen | E9.01a | Postbus 9103 | 6500 HD Nijmegen > >________________________________ >From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious >culture >[[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] >on behalf of SHERRY L REAMES >[[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] >Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 4:34 AM >To: >[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> >Subject: Re: [M-R] normans vs anglo saxon saints > >medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and >culture >Dear Meg, >I know there have been some major articles on this issue (including one >with a title like "Lanfranc's Supposed Purge of the Anglo-Saxon >Calendar.") Somebody else on the list may have the citations >conveniently at hand. If not, I'll search them out for you later this >week. >Sherry Reames > > >From: Cormack, Margaret Jean >Sent: Monday, October 23, 4:15 PM >Subject: Re: [M-R] normans vs anglo saxon saints >To: >[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> > >medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and >culture >Greetings all, >I think it is considered "general knowledge" that Norman bishops did >not approve of the veneration of numerous Anglo-Saxon saints (Alfeah >comes immediately to mind), but that's not something I can put in a >footnote. Does anyone know of articles or chapters that discuss this >phenomenon? >Thanks in advance, >Meg >********************************************************************** >To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR >NAME to: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> To >send a message to the list, address it to: >[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> >To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: >[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> In order to >report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: >[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> >For further information, visit our web site: 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