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Thanks for that -- what you say re Pound. I am glad he did retract and I certainly accept his importance and poetic achievement L On 12 September 2017 at 19:27, Douglas Barbour <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > A lot of Yeses to both your notes, Lawrence. > > One sort-of-No; I seem to recall from(among others) a Guy Davenport essay > on Pound, that he did say that his anti-Semitism had been a mistake, > something learned early on the US plains, & I never quit understood how so > cosmopolitan mind had stuck in that groove. The thing so many of us`, in > my generation anyway (I think), could not ignore was how important his > poetics proved to our own development as writers. > > As to both the Tories & Brexit there, & Trump next door to us in Canada, > every day brings more news of just how much damage both are doing to their > countries. So, yes, we fight back however we can… > > Doug > > On Sep 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Lawrence Upton <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > > > >> gosh must be tricky to know what our own prejudices are (-esp as in my > > case I do not meet many people these days) > > > > It helps clear thinking to meet others, yes, especially if they do not > > share one's assumptions > > these exchanges have been useful in that regard, I think > > > >> and I suppose we rationalise prejudices them > > I am sure that we do > > > >> perhaps not all right wing Tories are bad ???:-) or neo Nazi's and as > for > > Trump eek > > depends what we mean by 'bad' > > they are responsible certainly > > > > I say nothing of other parties. Tories are bad. The individuals may be in > > explicably odd mental places; but their effects are bad for the rest of > us. > > Ditto neo-Nazis. Ditto Trump. > > Opposition to them is self-defence. > > > > One hears "It's not my fault; I didn't know" and that can be seen as > > evasive -- I'm thinking of, amongst other things, a man with whom I > > exchanged words a while back when he had said he wanted "England to be > > great again" (England, note, ) I asked him when it had been great > > previously and he said "I don't know. I'm not an historian." > > > > I pointed out the nonsense obtained by putting the 2 statements together > > and he used a well-known phrase. > > > > I persisted and said surely he must know enough from school and he said > he > > didn't listen in history lessons because they were boring... > > > > Thus we have an implicit assertion that we may ignore anything which we > do > > not find entertaining. I don't accept that. > > > > Tories are bad for us. Deomonstrably. Look at NHS. + the economy. +the > > latest news from my p.o.v. which is to do roadworks in the vicinity of > UK's > > most famous ancient monument even though the archaeologists are still > > finding new things about it. > > > > Others may do such damage. Tories always do. > > > > I see no justification for neo-Naziism. Or Trump. (I have listened to > many > > explications of the votes for Trump and they are illogical and or > evasive) > > > > toodle-oo > > > > L > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12 September 2017 at 11:05, Patrick McManus < > > [log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > >> L thanks -gosh must be tricky to know what our own prejudices are (-esp > as > >> in my case I do not meet many people these days) > >> > >> and I suppose we rationalise prejudices them -perhaps not all right wing > >> Tories are bad ???:-) or neo Nazi's and as for Trump eek > >> > >> > >> On 12/09/2017 10:29, Lawrence Upton wrote: > >> > >>> I like benamored > >>> even if it's not in the dictionary > >>> or I assume it's not > >>> > >>> I remember, sort of, Pound's regretting, in his old age, some aspects > of > >>> his behaviour -- though not, as I remember, the anti-semitism, more his > >>> spreading his talent too thin > >>> > >>> likewise, Eliot, I think, never retracted > >>> > >>> but... but... not to excuse but > >>> > >>> My father worked when young for a Jewish firm -- this would have been > the > >>> 1920s -- fixing their vehicles > >>> and he told me once that, on that experience, Jews were wonderful > people > >>> etc etc -- he was explaining to me the meaning and occurrence in his > >>> speech > >>> of some Yiddish phrase that he'd picked up; and then maybe a decade or > >>> more > >>> later when I mentioned that I was going to Poland for the summer (70s) > >>> asking somewhat suspiciously "Poland... aren't they all Jewish > there"... > >>> > >>> I might explain his poor geographical / racial knowledge by saying he > left > >>> school at 14 and never went further south and east than Dover (a > Londoner: > >>> my mother told me that he once stopped the car at a pub in Devon to buy > >>> cigarettes and went back to her to say he couldn't understand them - > they > >>> were all foreigners... He'd never met that accent somehow > >>> > >>> None of that explains the inconsistency > >>> > >>> But... but... I suspect all that wasn't that unusual.... certainly the > >>> contradiction is common still; look at the nonsense that passes for > debate > >>> going on in UK now... NB attacks on Eastern Europeans by the > >>> self-righteous > >>> English > >>> > >>> And... My mother -- also an Edwardian birth -- would say "I don't know; > >>> I'm > >>> only a woman" even if she could cope with Devon accents > >>> > >>> And as DHL -- the writer, not the transport company -- has been > mentioned, > >>> somewhere he wrote something like having sex with a black woman would > make > >>> a man feel dirty... Can't remember where that was; but I remember > turning > >>> a > >>> page and stumbling on it and being dumbfounded > >>> > >>> Ignorance... prejudice... oy vey... A London Jewish friend who lived in > >>> Israel for some years, asked me to go with him to a Yiddish film > festival. > >>> (That festival was a 'revelation'.) And during our visits he > communicated > >>> his belief that Yiddish was a C19 invention made in response to > Zionism! > >>> > >>> I told him what I knew and he was a little gobsmacked > >>> > >>> I of course am free of ignorance and prejudice > >>> > >>> L > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On 12 September 2017 at 10:05, Bill Wootton <[log in to unmask]> > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> enamoured, whoops > >>>> > >>>> On Tue, 12 Sep 2017 at 5:58 pm, Bill Wootton < > [log in to unmask]> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Yes, that's how I would take it, L. Also even a dickhead may not > always > >>>>> have been a dickhead or some gems might emerge despite their > dickheadry. > >>>>> > >>>> I > >>>> > >>>>> do recall Larkin's poem about the toad, work, squatting on your life > and > >>>>> being benamored of that expression. > >>>>> > >>>>> B > >>>>> > >>>>> On Tue, 12 Sep 2017 at 2:45 PM, Lawrence Upton < > [log in to unmask] > >>>>>> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> I don't recall reading that; but if I understand it, then sure -- the > >>>>>> writer's writing is more reliable than their commentary > >>>>>> > >>>>>> L > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On 12 September 2017 at 04:27, Andrew Burke <[log in to unmask]> > >>>>>> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I particularly liked having a small discussion about Larkin as a > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> focus. > >>>> > >>>>> So > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> I thought I'd throw in something else to discuss - from Poetry > Daily's > >>>>>>> Newsletter: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> DH Lawrence’s advice to 'never trust the artist; trust the tale', > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Over to you ... > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Andrew > >>>>>>> http://hispirits.blogspot.com/ > >>>>>>> Books available through Walleah Press > >>>>>>> http://walleahpress.com.au > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > > Douglas Barbour > [log in to unmask] > https://eclecticruckus.wordpress.com/ > > Recent publications: (With Sheila E Murphy) Continuations & Continuations > 2 (UofAPress). > Recording Dates (Rubicon Press). > Listen. If (UofAPress): > > > There was the usual amount of corruption, intimidation, and rioting. > > Sir Charles Petrie >