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I think modernism in general exploded many previous notions about a polarity between beauty and ugliness, but this doesn't mean that people stop using the terms, modernists included. My own take on consciously written anti-poetry (and this does not necessarily mean ugly) came early, then receded, then came back with force many years later, then receded again - still in recession at the moment. It's a very loose term anyway, but I did find that it applied to how I felt about what I was doing. But there is always a rift between the writing and reading side of any poet - I have enjoyed some 'mainstream' poetry, and still do when it is good, and genuine. There 'genuine' - another minefield. Cheers Tim On 2 Sep 2017, at 18:38, Luke wrote: > Interesting. I think dada and confessional poetry are or have been ugly. I think that both moments are preferable to bland contemporary poetry. Does the same hold for less bland contemporary poetry? I think one would have to learn both those modes. I mean ideally inside out, not just an awareness. And yea I suppose that the critic should agree that however much poetry is about beauty the result of dada etc. is not just a more robust concept. Maybe that it was new? > > On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 2:13 PM, Tim Allen <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > There is a kind of category that winds through C20 poetry that some call anti-poetry. I know because I've been there. It is a more consciously orientated version of the impulse to reach gold by going through the shit that goes right back to Baudelaire. It is one response to being tired bored and unsatisfied of the repetitive ugliness of the so-called 'worthy' and 'nice' of so much mainstream poetry with its triteness camouflaged behind a veneer of skill and right-on messaging. It is an impulse that has been aesthetically successful. > > So I think I know what Luke is getting at re this.