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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Are there any studies of the "pretty crazy" beliefs of ordinary people? Or even of the not so crazy beliefs of ordinary people? Jim ________________________________ From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Gary Macy <[log in to unmask]> Sent: August 15, 2017 2:03:35 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [M-R] Transubstantiation question medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture I appreciate Thomas Izibick's clarification on the status of transubstantiation as a dogma. His work on canon law concerning the Eucharist is now the classic study. In answer to David Postles' question, the term "transubstantiation" referred to any of three theories that explained how the change took place. The first, what I have called transmutation, is what one now thinks of as transubstantiation. The substance of the bread and wine are transformed into the substance of the body and blood of Christ. The second, what is usually called substitution, posits that the substance of the bread and wine are annihilated and the substance of the body and blood take their place. The third theory, which I have called coexistence, posits that the substance of the bread and wine remain along with the substance of the body and blood. It is similar to, but not quite the same as the later theory of consubstantiation. All three were considered orthodox interpretations of transubstantiation in the thirteenth century, although theologians bitterly debated the merits of each. By the mid fourteenth century at least, coexistence had pretty much gone out of favor but the other two theories remained, the Franciscans particularly defending substitution. This debate was one reason Trent trod carefully, as Paul Chandler points out so clearly, in its treatment of transubstantiation. Theologians debated this stuff; ordinary folk were only required to believe in the real presence. What ordinary Christians did believe about the real presence could get pretty crazy, but that is a whole other issue. On Tue, Aug 15, 2017 at 10:48 AM, Dave Postles <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture I wonder to what extent it was a conventional belief in contrast to consubstantiation and substitution? -- http://www.historicalresources.myzen.co.uk (research and pedagogy) I use Lilo web search: no tracking and social good (Firefox add-on) This machine runs on liquid Linux Often coming to you via TOR (The Onion Router) De Havilland Fellow, University of Hertfordshire ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion -- Please note that I am no longer Director of the Graduate Program in Pastoral Ministries. All correspondence for the GPPM should be directed to Joseph Morris ([log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>) or Lynne Luckenbill ([log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>). Gary Macy "Veritas non erubescit nisi abscondi" - Leo XIII ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion