medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

I wonder if the issue would have been defined in West as it was, if not for Berengarius's challenge.

Jaye

On Aug 21, 2017 9:49 PM, "Kurt Sherry" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Ah, thanks. A lot of the debates that developed in the West starting in the 12th c. or so and especially during the Reformation era are really quite absent in the East, so the Orthodox Church never staked out a specific position (this is largely true of some much earlier matters like Original Sin, too).

On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 2:04 PM, Jaye Procure <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Hi Kurt

Remembering, of course, that the word "transubstantiation" was not coined until later, here is the quotation to which I referred. The quotation is from the website therealpresence.org.

"This food we call the Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us. For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God's Word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the Word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus."

"First Apology", Ch. 66, inter A.D. 148-155"

Jaye

On Aug 21, 2017 1:35 PM, "Kurt Sherry" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Jaye, do you happen to have the Justin Martyr reference handy? I'm curious because in my non-professional life, I do tours of our local Orthodox cathedral and people sometimes ask about transsubstantiation, which is not explicitly an Orthodox dogma (the Orthodox position is rather more like that of Martin Luther in the Marburg Colloquy, i.e., it's the Body and Blood of Christ, the mechanics are unimportant).

On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 4:24 PM, Jaye Procure <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

The idea of transubstantiation had been around since at least the 2nd century, as Justin Martyr refers to the idea.  The word Transubstantiation did not exist until a good bit later.  

The doctrine was not defined until it was being challenged, as is often the case with doctrine.

Jaye

On 14 August 2017 at 15:44, Gordon Plumb <000000648c720e9f-dmarc-reques[log in to unmask]> wrote:

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

A question for Gary Macy: if transubstantiation was not a doctrine in the Middle Ages, how come that there are many records of people being put to death for denying it?

Gordon Plumb


-----Original Message-----
From: Gary Macy <[log in to unmask]>
To: MEDIEVAL-RELIGION <[log in to unmask].UK>

Sent: Mon, Aug 14, 2017 8:10 pm
Subject: Re: [M-R] Transubstantiation question

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

First, you are quite correct in assuming that transubstantiation was a theory, or actual a group of theories, about how the risen Christ might be present in the Eucharist.  It was very much,as you describe it, about "the relationship between outside and inside, visible and invisible."

Transubstantiation was not a doctrine in the Middle Ages and not declared to be so by Lateran IV.  I have discussed this all at length in "The Dogma of Transubstantiation in the Middle Ages." Journal of Ecclesiastical History 45 (1994): 11-41.  On the later understanding of transubstantiation, the work of Ian Levy is excellent.  I would suggest 

his

John Wyclif's Theology of the Eucharist in Its Medieval Context.  Be sure to use the 2015 edition.  If you don't want to read lots of technical stuff on transubstantiation, the best recent summary of the theology of the Eucharist in the Middle Ages can be found in A Companion to the Eucharist in the Middle Ages (Brill's Companions to the Christian Tradition) edited by Ian Levy, Gary Macy and Kristen Van Ausdall (Brill, 2011).  As some compensation for the dusty theology, the book also discusses art, liturgy, architecture, popular devotion, and even some (but not enough) literature.

On Mon, Aug 14, 2017 at 11:39 AM, Maija Birenbaum <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

It became doctrine in Lateran IV, 1215.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 14, 2017, at 1:14 PM, Sarah Wilkins <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Dear all,

I'm working on editing a volume of essays, and a question of terminology has arisen that I thought perhaps someone here would be able to assist with.

At issue is Transubstantiation in the late medieval era (13th-14th c. Italy specifically)

What would one refer to it as in this period.
It is not officially church doctrine until Trent, correct? But calling it a "theory" didn't seem quite sufficient to me (but I'm an art historian, hence my asking opinions here).

The passage in question is:
"As theologians explored and debated over the difficult relationship between Eucharistic accidents and substance suggested by the [doctrine/theory?] of transubstantiation, that is, between the appearance of bread in the Host and its ‘bread-ness’ or, as in the case of the consecrated Host, its ‘Christ-ness’, they had to consider the relationship between outside and inside, visible and invisible."

One solution would simply to say "suggested by Transubstantiation, that is..."

Is there something else one could call it more accurately?

(I realize it is a bit odd to give such a snippet out of its larger context, but considering it is not yet published, it seems inappropriate to give more.)

Thanks for any assistance!

Best regards,

Sarah W.

--

Sarah S. Wilkins, PhD
Visiting Assistant Professor
Pratt Institute
History of Art and Design Department
200 Willoughby Avenue
Brooklyn, NY 11205

Programming Committee, Italian Art Society
http://italianartsociety.org

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Please note that I am no longer Director of the Graduate Program in Pastoral Ministries.  All correspondence for the GPPM should be directed to Joseph Morris ([log in to unmask]) or Lynne Luckenbill ([log in to unmask]).

Gary Macy

"Veritas non erubescit nisi abscondi" – Leo XIII

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