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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture In the Byzantine liturgical corpus, the Annunciation is overtly linked to the Incarnation. Is there any such thing in the 12th/13th c. Spanish liturgical material? On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 10:22 AM, Teresa Witcombe < [log in to unmask]> wrote: > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > > Thank you - that is extremely helpful! > ------------------------------ > *From:* medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious > culture <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Ihnat, K. (Kati) < > [log in to unmask]> > *Sent:* 14 July 2017 09:00:18 > > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: [M-R] Annunciation/Incarnation > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > PS I now realise - while that applies to the Old Hispanic feast of Mary > (on 18 December), because that was Spain's original feast of the > Annunciation, it seems possible that the reasoning was transferred to the > 25 March feast when the Roman liturgy was brought in. Maybe? > > > *_________________________________________________________________________________________* > *Kati Ihnat *| Lecturer in Medieval History | Radboud University > Nijmegen | E9.01a | Postbus 9103 | 6500 HD Nijmegen > > ------------------------------ > *From:* medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious > culture [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Ihnat, K. (Kati) [ > [log in to unmask]] > *Sent:* Friday, July 14, 2017 9:55 AM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: [M-R] Annunciation/Incarnation > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > Hello Teresa! > > Actually, the reason for calling the feast 'the Incarnation' may go back > to the legislation that established it - so, back to 656 at the tenth > council of Toledo. It explicitly states: "For what is the feast of the > mother if not that of the Incarnation of the Word? " (Canon 1; Toledo X: Nam > quid festum est matris nisi incarnatio verbi? - Gonzalo Martínez Díez and > Félix Rodríguez, ed. *La colección canónica hispana*. (V. Concilios > hispanos: Segunda parte). Madrid: 1992, 520) Also, Ildefonsus' treatise > (which may have been used in the liturgy for matins even in the 13th > century) refers often to the Incarnation (Christology is a major element of > the treatise and the Old Hispanic liturgy for Mary). It could be this > legacy that is recalled then in the name of the feast. > > Hope that's of help! > > Kati > > > > *_________________________________________________________________________________________* > *Kati Ihnat *| Lecturer in Medieval History | Radboud University > Nijmegen | E9.01a | Postbus 9103 | 6500 HD Nijmegen > > ------------------------------ > *From:* medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious > culture [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of James Bugslag [ > [log in to unmask]] > *Sent:* Friday, July 14, 2017 1:01 AM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: [M-R] Annunciation/Incarnation > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > > What, I am wondering, did St Ildefonsus call it? > > Jim > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious > culture <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Teresa Witcombe < > [log in to unmask]> > *Sent:* July 13, 2017 9:31:21 AM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: [M-R] Annunciation/Incarnation > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > > Thank you both. > > > As a clarification, I'm particularly interested in *who* was calling this > feast the Incarnation in the early 13th century. As far as I am aware, the > standard name for the feast in Spain was the Annunciation. The text I am > looking at from Toledo makes it clear that the author knew both names and > thought the Incarnation was 'better' for some reason - so I'd be extremely > interested to know if breviaries or liturgical documents in France or > elsewhere were referring to the Annunciation as the Incarnation in this > same period. > > Any suggestions greatly appreciated! > > Best regards, > > Teresa > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious > culture <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Richard Legault < > [log in to unmask]> > *Sent:* 13 July 2017 13:22:51 > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: [M-R] Annunciation/Incarnation > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > I can't quote any Spanish sources but the logic seems easy enough to > understand. The 25 March date is 9 months before 25 December (Nativity). > For some, the moment of Incarnation was considered to be not the birth of > Jesus but the moment the Virgin Mary conceived or became pregnant. That > moment was understood to coincide with the announcement to Mary by the > Angel Gabriel that she would conceive, as reported in Luke 1:26–38 > <http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201:26–38:26&version=!>. > Thus the Annunciation and the Incarnation, considering they occurred at the > same time, can be celebrated on the same day. > > Cheers, > > Richard J Legault > > On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 7:44 AM, Eileen Gardiner <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > >> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture >> Hi, >> >> I don’t have information specific to this place or time, but the dating >> system that set March 25 as the first day of the year, probably the most >> frequently used system in the M.A., was know as dating *ab incarnatione. >> *So this was not an unusual idea. There’s an article in * >> Medieval Studies: An Introduction *by Ware on “Medieval Chronology” that >> goes into the details. >> >> Best, >> Eileen >> >> >> Eileen Gardiner >> 595 Main Street, Suite 605 >> New York, NY 10044 >> 917-428-1404 <(917)%20428-1404> >> [log in to unmask] >> >> On Jul 13, 2017, at 6:41 AM, Teresa Witcombe < >> [log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture >> Dear all, >> >> I'm emailing with a query about the feast of the Annunciation. I'm >> working on a liturgical document from Toledo, dated to 1227, in which the >> Annunciation is promoted to a major feast day. However the wording is >> interesting: the Annunciation 'which should be better described as the >> feast of the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ'. >> >> Does anyone have any suggestions as to what might have prompted this >> preference for 'Incarnation'? I have not found other examples of the >> Incarnation being used in other thirteenth-century Spanish documents, but >> is this the norm outside of Spain? Or are the two terms being debated >> elsewhere in this period? >> Thank you! >> >> Best regards, >> Teresa >> >> Teresa Witcombe >> >> ********************************************************************** >> To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME >> to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it >> to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the >> message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In >> order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: >> [log in to unmask] For further information, visit >> our web site:http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion >> >> >> ********************************************************************** >> To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME >> to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it >> to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the >> message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In >> order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: >> [log in to unmask] For further information, visit >> our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion > > > ********************************************************************** To > join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: > [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: > unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to > report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] For further information, visit > our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion > ********************************************************************** To > join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: > [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: > unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to > report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] For further information, visit > our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion > ********************************************************************** To > join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: > [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: > unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to > report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] For further information, visit > our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion > ********************************************************************** To > join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: > [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: > unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to > report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] For further information, visit > our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion > ********************************************************************** To > join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: > [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: > unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to > report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] For further information, visit > our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion > ********************************************************************** To > join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: > [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: > unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to > report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] For further information, visit > our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion > ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion