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Dear Martin, Thanks for your post and your question. It will take me some time to respond, but I will return to answer what I think is the best way to build doctoral education from studio-based design education. For now, three brief notes. You wrote, "It appears that there are those on the list who see the PhD as driven primarily by the generation of new and original contributions to knowledge (including myself and, I think, Don Norman) and others (e.g. Ken) who see it primarily as a training in research. The latter is also important but the PhD must surely be more than a self-serving training in how to train more PhD students?” 1) You misread me. I agree with you and Don that the criterion for awarding the PhD is the generation of new and original contributions to knowledge. Most folks require research training to make a new and original contribution to knowledge. 2) Research training is also vital for those who will go on to supervise and train PhD students. This is not self-serving — to think about it another way, the research training one acquires in earning a PhD enables one to do research. The PhD thesis is the journeyman piece in which one moves from apprentice to fully licensed practitioner in the guild of researchers. The criterion of a new and original contribution to knowledge demonstrates the use that one can actually do independent research rather than merely summarizing what others have done. As an outcome of developing these skills, one *also* develops the skills one needs to help train PhD students. This is not the nature of a self-serving training, but rather the outcome of training in journeyman skills that one must later transmit to others. You wrote, “The example of Nick Sousanis’s graphic novel, ‘Unflattening’ was also discussed at length on this list, culminating in an extremely generous and thoughtful 11000 word email from Ken (more words than in the PhD thesis discussed), which I long hoped to find time to respond to but was ultimately defeated by.” 3) Nick Sousanis did not write a PhD thesis. It was a beautiful book, but it was *not* a PhD thesis. Dr. Sousanis earned an EdD degree at Columbia University Teacher’s College with Unflattening. The EdD is the doctor of education degree. My post explained why Unflattening met the criteria for a doctorate in education, even though it did not meet the criteria for a PhD. I’ll be back to answer your question to me when I’ve had time to write a proper answer. Yours, Ken Ken Friedman, PhD, DSc (hc), FDRS | Chair Professor of Design Innovation Studies | College of Design and Innovation | Tongji University | Shanghai, China ||| University Distinguished Professor | Centre for Design Innovation | Swinburne University of Technology | Melbourne, Australia -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- PhD-Design mailing list <[log in to unmask]> Discussion of PhD studies and related research in Design Subscribe or Unsubscribe at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/phd-design -----------------------------------------------------------------