medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Of course. I think it is me that is the naive (sub-)urbanite! (which came first...?)
Rosemary
----- Original Message -----
From: Gross-Diaz, Theresa
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2017 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [M-R] origins of carnival, Lent, etc
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
I may be a naive urbanite, but I always just assumed they let those eggs become chickens that would get eaten after Lent was over!
TGD
From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Rosemary Hayes-Milligan and Andrew Milligan
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2017 11:41 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] origins of carnival, Lent, etc
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Many thanks indeed to Kurt, Stephen, Vera and Jaye for all the extra information. My initial query perhaps did not make sufficiently clear that I knew that carnival was about saying farewell to flesh and other pleasures before Lent as I do know about the late medieval and modern practice of the Western Church. Indeed, I often bore the family with the fact that, in eating pancakes on Shrove Tuesday (interesting the English talk about shriving while others have 'Fat Tuesday') we are saying farewell to the 'lacticinia'. I wonder what they did with all those eggs they couldn't eat? - Easy enough to preserve milk by making cheese and butter, but eggs?
However, I did not know that the Lenten fast of the catechumens went back so early in the Church's history and I am very grateful to Kurt for the Byzantine perspective. I have noted how much more seriously my Orthodox friends seem to take fasting than we in the West.
Thank you Vera for the Cologne information.
Grateful best wishes,
Rosemary
----- Original Message -----
From: Kurt Sherry
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 4:31 PM
Subject: Re: [M-R] origins of carnival, Lent, etc
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
I come from a Byzantine perspective, so my comments might be a bit different. Sorry it's so long, but I tried to write it so that the most relevant parts come first, so you can stop reading, kind of like a news story.
Mardi Gras/Carnival things might well derive from some pre-Christian fertility festivals and the like, but it could also have come from the simple practice of eating up all of the non-fasting foods and getting in all the sex you can before you have to start fasting (one Greek priest I knew once referred to Lent as "the lentil period"). Of course, there's also the instinctive tendency to want to up the ante and make the party bigger than it was last year, and things could easily be more bacchanalian in contexts in which the people involved are actually less pious to begin with, so it provides a good excuse.
My understanding of the origins of Lent is that it was a practice in the early Church that catechumens were asked to fast for 40 days (evoking Jesus' 40 days in the Transjordan, Moses's 40 days on the mountain, the Israelites' 40 years in the desert) to prepare for their baptisms on Great and Holy Saturday (I think this was later extended to Advent since Theophany is another major day for baptism of converts). At some point (presumably in the 4th or 5th century), the Church decided it would be a good idea if everyone did it (whether it was a spirit of solidarity matter or simply the recognition that those who were already Christian tend to get kind of sloppy and need a good refresher).
In the Orthodox world, the specific rules of what is and isn't fasting are subject to a lot of local variation (e.g., Carpatho-Russians allow fish during fasts, native Alaskans don't abstain from meat because they would probably end up starving to death--there's an incident in the journals of St. Yakov Netsvetov on this), but I follow the Byzantine/Greek practice of nothing from a critter with a backbone (no meat, no dairy, no eggs, no fish) as well as abstention from wine and olive oil. People don't like to mention it, but marital relations are also in the fasting guidelines (I noticed once that Jim Brundage noted sex as subject to the fasting rules during Advent and Lent for the West in his book, but he never mentioned it in class that I can recall). There's also a tradition of not eating until after the ninth hour (3 pm), which I actually try to observe (though not always successfully) during the week, but not on weekends.
In the Byzantine tradition, Lent is the 40 days before Holy Week (so we start on what's called Clean Monday with the service of Forgiveness Vespers in the evening of the Sunday of the Expulsion from Paradise--the Orthodox liturgical day begins at sundown, but the fasting day begins at midnight). There is katalysis (a relaxation of the rules) for Saturdays and Sundays, which allows for olive oil and wine on the weekends. There is a tradition of trying to kick Lent off by being hardcore and not eating anything for the first three days until after the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts on Clean Wednesday evening. There is also katalysis for the Annunciation (allowing even fish!). Holy Week, while technically separate (and liturgically really wild), follows the fasting rules for Lent (Great and Holy Saturday is the only Saturday of the year for which there is no katalysis and it's a strict fast).
Furthermore, the Church thought it was a good idea to provide a "pre-season" to get people ready for Lent, called Triodion. There's even a little warning day (Zacchaeus Sunday) before Triodion actually starts. The first week of Triodion is the week following the Sunday of the Parable of the Publican and Pharisee; this is one of four much-anticipated fast-free weeks (a reminder that the Pharisee's boast includes that he fasts twice a week, so a subtle reminder of the importance of humility rather than ascetic feats), so we can eat meat on Wednesday and Friday. Then, there's the Sunday of Parable of the Prodigal Son (so a call to remember the mercy of God and to repent), which is a normal week (fasting on Wednesday and Friday). This past Sunday was the Sunday of the Last Judgment (so we get the heavy dose of liturgical reminders of the justice of God and a call to repentance), which is also called Meatfare (i.e., last chance to eat meat until Pascha), which ushers in what's called Cheesefare week (we can have dairy, eggs, and fish all week long, even on Wednesday and Friday). Then, the final Sunday is the Sunday of the Expulsion from Paradise (a pretty heavy punch in the gut about the consequences of sin), which is also called Cheesefare Sunday (because we have to finish up all of our dairy because we can't have it until Pascha) and also Forgiveness Sunday (the vespers that evening, which is the vespers for Clean Monday to start Lent, has a big rite in which everyone in attendance asks the forgiveness of everyone else, beginning with the priest, in order to start Lent in a spirit of having lain aside all resentments and so on, but it also derives from the practice of at least one Palestinian monastery where the brotherhood scattered to the wilderness for the duration of Lent, see the Life of St. Mary of Egypt for that).
Sorry about the length of the reply. It's an elaborate matter.
Kurt
On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 8:29 AM, Stephen Morris <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Rosemary:
The word "carnival" itself is about giving up carne (meat) for the next few weeks. During the fast, the Church asked her children to give up violence by not eating anything that needed to be killed (i.e. all animal products) and thus restore the harmony of mankind and the world; humans were to eat the fruits and vegetables that Adam ate in Paradise. (Permission was not given for humanity to eat meat until after the Flood, apparently.)
The fast was part-and-parcel of the preparation of the catechumens (people preparing to convert) who were scheduled to be baptized at the Easter Vigil. The fast was observed by the catechumens and their godparents and was quickly extended to all the faithful who were expected to support the catechumens in their preparation as well as renew their own dedication to the life expected of the baptized. (We have first century reference to the pre-baptismal fast.)
Adult penitents were also admitted to the last stage of their re-integration into the life of the Church during the fast before Easter. (They had committed such public offenses against communal expectations that demanded public restoration of communion with the community.) In western Christian practice, they were dressed in sackcloth and ashes on the first day of the fast (which was a Wednesday in Western practice) and then readmitted to communion on Maundy Thursday.
Hope this helps.
Stephen
Storm Wolf available NOW!
www.stephenmorrisauthor.com
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From: Jaye Procure <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2017 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: [M-R] origins of carnival, Lent, etc
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
The word Lent comes from the old English word for lengthen, as the days are getting longer at this part of the year (in the Northern Hemisphere). I suspect that is where the 'pagan origins' come from, although I have never come across that 'origin' in relation to Lent in my reading.
The 40 days are significant because that signals something momentous. Interestingly, 40 days is also enough to form new habits, so there may be a psychological bent there as well.
Carnival, or Mardi Gras is the day when food forbidden in Lent is used up...meat, eggs, butter, etc. The Orthodox and Eastern Rite churches still fast strictly during Lent. The western Church has modified significantly.
Sundays are not included, officially, in the fast.
I am working from my own memory at the moment so forgive early morning lapses. I am not teaching this year...
Jaye
On Feb 21, 2017 8:48 AM, "Rosemary Hayes-Milligan and Andrew Milligan" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
I hope you will forgive an idle query. My son, who is studying in Europe, is planning to go to 'carnival' in Cologne. While telling us, he mentioned Catholic and pagan origins. I responded with a bit about Lent in the late medieval period but realised that I don't really know too much about actual origins.
My knowledge goes as far as the rains of Noah's flood lasting for 40 days, the Jews wandering in the desert for 40 years and Jesus fasting there for 40 days, replicated by the Church's 40 days of fasting and abstinence before Holy Week.
Do we know when it all actually began in the Church; and is he right to suggest a pagan background? Or is the tradition of a feast before a fast wholly Judeo-Christian in origin?
many thanks,
Rosemary Hayes
Dr RCE Hayes
18 Murrayfield Drive
Edinburgh
EH12 6EB
0131 337 1385
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