Print

Print
If people leave any list or forum it is by choice & I have had to accept putdowns or false claims made against me. These I accept but also one must defend oneself & gender for me is no excuse for questioning my sanity. An Irish term used often in Ireland to describe an individual as sly or devious was picked up as an attack on females. That term applies to both genders so nothing personal was ever intended & indeed Alison Rachel & Jimmy pulled no punches. These I took on the chin happily with no malice or spurious claims to be an angel. 

If free speech is not allowed we may as well all give up & no philosophy or academic reputation can excuse abuse. Indeed if people consider me "insane" & others excuse them we live in sad times. No human being merits verbal abuse & I have no problem with David Lace e.g. but question Tony's defence of Alison? In person & on here I have always credited Tony Fraser's fine record. If David Lace slags me off that is par for the course & I defend his right to state his case on any issue. Jamie and myself will never agree on Seamus Heaney but I value his posts. To agree to differ is far better than exiting from the list.

In any grouping some are more important than others but such is life. Overall I have never seen Tim as sexist & in fact a very reasonable man. If Geraldine Monk has left the list I regret it but it is her choice if she has gone or not? I do not know the issues involved but have huge respect for Geraldine. 

Going back to Harry Truman's quip on kitchens getting too hot one must accept differences and disputes happen. The gender issue is important but need not be played as a card to excuse abuse. It is all too easy to play pop up when hard issues are being discussed. Promo members & lurkers emerge to play only when roused from their slumbers. Robin Hamilton is a refreshing voice as well as Judy Prince. 

Long may free open debate continue!

Cheers

sc
Turn that frown upside down

On Monday, 31 October 2016, Tim Allen <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Dear list, please inform me how I can leave it because I am overcome with guilt at being male and having the temerity to post things here. I am very very sorry for all the offence I have caused down the years.

All the very best

Tim A. (that's Allen not Atkins, because I would not want Mr. Atkins to be slurred by such offences as I have been guilty of.

 
On 31 Oct 2016, at 18:44, Jaime Robles wrote:

Tim, 

Alison Croggon and Rachel Warriner both tried to explain to the list why they felt the list was alienating to women. That was in 2014, and no one seemed to credit what they were saying. Rather, if I recall correctly, their perception was challenged. That’s when both Alison and Rachel left the list; Alison for the second time, I believe. I suggest searching for that and thinking over what was being said. Rachel was very articulate.

I would also recommend the members of the list individually rereading the exchange and thinking about it, rather than bringing opinions about that exchange to the list. I can almost guarantee that a renewed argument on the topic will only increase the alienation, and neither Alison nor Rachel is on the list to reply.