His relation to a tradition of song is something I believe Dylan also holds dear, and that informs the words as well as the music. He often gets spoken of as an absolute singularity, and the Nobel merely adds to that, so for me the image of him singing beside Blind Willie McTell is really important. I mentioned two of his most obvious and often noticed influences earlier - Woodie Guthrie and Harry Smith's Anthology of American Folk Music. But Dylan from the very start has been astonishingly eclectic and I think that has contributed to the breadth and durability of his appeal. Earlier, Mark (I'm not quoting exactly) argued that he was always a better artist than the 'folkies' were. I take this, in part, to be a reference to the1965 Newport Folk Festival where he was benightedly booed by a section of the audience for going electric. But the American folk tradition which obviously and crucially includes Blues, and I would say Jazz as well, is one of the glories of world, not just US, culture, so seeing Dylan within it is not in anyway to diminish him.JamieHi, Tim
Reply to both this and the previous about Dismembering Dylan. :-)
We're never going to agree on this, I suspect, but unteasing why we're coming from wherever is maybe useful.
Deep down, we're probably seeing different Dylans. When I look at him, I see (among other things) the inheritor of a particular tradition, the young Dylan sitting beside the aged Blind Willie McTell, both with their guitars, both singing the blues. Sure, he extends the tradition, but he's still part of it, and I get the sense, perhaps unfairly, that you want to do to him what was done to Shakespeare, rip him out of his context and set him up on a pedestal as an object for Unique Adoration.
As to the Nobel issue ... mostly, I feel about that heavily politicised lunatic winner-takes-all gee-s/h/e's-a -Nobel, must be good, the way I feel about ... rabbits.
Frankly, comes down to it, Dylan is bigger than the Nobel, and even if he hadn't got the Nobel, he'd outlast many who have. It's a useful publicity exercise for under-rated writers, but I suspect that when the Awarders get it right, it's mostly by accident. At least when it comes to "literature". Chemistry, Physics, and Physiology on one side, with Economic Sciences stirred in later, while we have Literature and Peace on the other, you might as well divide all human life between War and Peace, while you're at it.
As for the approval of the Establishment -- I'd rate that with the weight I give to the number of disks sold, one balancing the other. Sure, both Popular Judgement and Consensus Acknowledgement have some sort of significance, but neither is a guarantor of truth.
Ooof ...
Robin
On 29 October 2016 at 15:34 Tim Allen <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Robin - please excuse the fact that I'm going to take things from your post separately, because each in its own way is a separate issue.I am not suggesting that support for Dylan on the list is minimal - there has been mostly a very positive appreciation of Dylan as a song-writer and performer (the exceptions have been through lack of exposure due to taste, which is quite understandable and reasonable - except it makes it harder for them to understand the counter argument etc). I was saying that support for the idea that there was nothing categorically wrong in Dylan getting a prize for 'literature' has been out-posted by those with a different view.I never mentioned anything about any 'establishment'. It's true that I don't give a monkeys about the status (earned or unearned) of the holder of an opinion (not with this arty stuff anyway) but that's a by-and-by. I suppose you are referring to my saying that the argument is at base bigger than the way it has been framed here - yes - but that's not to do so much these days with 'establishments' - some of the people I agree with on such stuff are as much an establishment in their own sphere as anybody else - but let's not go there.. please... not now....What happened to my snooze? Had to do the hoovering, it woke me up.CheersTimOn 29 Oct 2016, at 13:56, Robin Hamilton wrote:I think when you suggest that the support for Dylan on the list is minimal, you're rather downplaying the position of someone like me who feels that Dylan is indeed a major artist and deserves recognition as such. And further, that his work, whatever we call it, is better than (at least) 99% of whatever is found on the page and called a poem today.
But given that this opinion is shared by even such an academically respectable figure as Christopher Ricks, and on the music side by Wilfred Mellors, I hardly think he's under-recognised by whatever we chose to call the establishment.