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I suppose my own position on art is that I have to see what the artist is doing or coming from in their work. Often to meet one's icons can be a real letdown with John Lennon's last interview in mind. In that Playboy interview he questioned live gigs as opposed to studio work. In a poetry context very few readers do their work justice bar a few I can recall from Dublin. None of these were big names but my goodness they could perform with real style. Often people like Barry Ahern knock the Beats theatrical aspects compared to the Objectivists - this could apply to music too of course. The notion of truth in our era has devalued language as nobody quite knows if anyone for example in politics is being honest. But that could apply to trademen or women or the Walmart check out operator. Labels have become meaningless as the century slowly takes shape. The old song "Everybody wants to go to heaven/but nobody wants to die" comes to mind. We impose our values on the past totally misunderstanding many events. George Oppen sought a sincere aspect in poetry which may still apply but the internet era has been a disappointment. In fact the snail mail era was more exciting with more effort involved. Cid Corman would reply faster from Japan than Joe or Mary Soap in Dublin. With Dylan I have always had problems & I do not understand the veneration with very little critical views. People like saviours & icons more & more as they blur reality. Sainthood is granted all too easily until the saint falls from grace. I have a vague recall of Dylan's actual situation being in a tabloid or broadsheet a few years ago. But it drew very little attentions though of course Dylan's legal people may have intervened. The cash for concert was Isle of Wight late sixties or early 1970s. Dylan's henchmen stood close to the event host & waited till all was counted. This from the same man who preached anti violence lyrics & looked like he could not hurt a fly. I like many artists but I enjoy knowing a little about them or I could end up in a Georgia O' Keeffe myth mindset. Georgia was a superb expert on the stock exchange for sales reasons but played the recluse card. She knew when to sell & yet the myth endures but Georgia was far from alone. In time as with Samuel Beckett the full story of Bob Dylan will emerge & there will be surprises. To cultivate a persona is no easy task & Beckett knew why not to translate De Sade. He presented himself as a hermit but was having one hell of an incarnation & I swallowed the lie. We live & unlearn perhaps? Cheers sc Turn that frown upside down On Saturday, 15 October 2016, Jeffrey Side <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Sean, it all depends on what view you have about art. If you see the artist’s sole reason to produce art as being “autobiographical”, then what you say about Dylan’s lack of autobiographical content in his songs is understandable. I don’t think he is necessarily motivated by autobiographical considerations. As to his personal attitude in how he prefers to be paid for his performances, I don’t think that should have any bearing on how audiences should respond to his work. If he prefers to be paid in cash, as you say (assuming you are correct), that, in my view, is not an important factor in evaluating the merits or demerits of his work. It might be to you, that such considerations are important because you view his reason for producing art as being autobiographical, and, therefore, any aspects of his private life that contradict the sentiments of his songs, to you, suggest that he is a hypocrite, or morally lacking in some sense. But, as I say, I don’t see him as having an autobiographical muse, so to speak. In my view, works of art should always exist independently of their creator. I have never considered the concept of an “authorial voice” as being of any significance to an appreciation of a work of art. When I read a poem, listen to a song, look at a painting; their creators are always far away from my awareness. I appreciate, though, that not everyone might view art in this way, and so fully respect your position regarding Dylan. On Sat, Sat, 15 Oct 2016 14:43, Sean Carey wrote: Confessionalism still goes on but not in a Berryman or Lowell context & looking back on that genre now it had virtues. Many poets of the younger generation are quite open on their lives & times & Andrea Brady i.e. does not hold back or Sutherland. They do it in a very post Prynne mode of poetics with Brady probably much more open than Keston. Contrast Brady's work on motherhood to Eavan Boland's "Night Feed" & despite the time lapse the total honesty is startling. Sutherland even in his SM orientated work does not reach this level of honesty. Clouding the poems with political discourse avoids the core issues he is exploring. This is very obvious when one sees him read on film or in person. At a major festival many moons ago Dylan insisted on being paid in hard cash which contrasted to many other iconic artists on the weekend bill with him. His letting down of Phil Ochs in his times of hardship can never be defended. Ochs merited far better in his time of homelessness which many have never experienced. Of course nobody with chemical problems is easy to handle but Phil was not a violent man. While his dodging of Dominic Behan who rightly confronted his lifting of "The Patriot Game" is a blemish on Dylan. Why Dylan or Springsteen cannot write about their real positions in society I do find irksome. Ok as Tim said fables & yarns make up a lot of their lyrical output but that is no excuse. Indeed both men could learn a lot from rap artists who shoot from the hip & don no masks. Often performing poets are simply playing the theatre card but few pull it out. Many are rooted in conservative poetic role models from eras now history. Many modern celebrity icons make no excuses for their wealth & fame & do full interviews. They account for their bank balances in a very honest manner & I welcome it. We all are very quick to assume all political figures should account for everything plus thinking every TD or MP is only in it for the money. In real terms a post political era started a fair few years ago when all politics became a brand. But can anyone explain Dylan's political views or his attitude to any current issue? Did he call himself Bob Dylan after Dylan Thomas or Matt Dillon? Does Bob pay taxes or contribute to any charity? Has Bob opened up his many mansions to migrants or housed any homeless person? Was the motor bike crash a real event or an escape from the burden of fame? What is Bob Dylan's attitude to women given his lyrical tirades against women he claimed to love? With a Lowell or Berryman there would have been no problem with these ?s or indeed Norman Mailer no fan of Bob Dylan. His quip on if Dylan is a writer Norm was a basketball player has shades of Antin on Lowell. Anyway there we go on Bob Dylan. Cheers sc On guys or gals who hung out in the Rat Pack era they never hid the fact they were making a fortune. They mixed with rogues as well as angels in Hollywood or Vegas. Dylan seems to avoid any "friends" since he retreated to New York State. His skill in avoiding the MSM & popular media is unique in my memory for such a major star. Turn that frown upside down