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Agree…there is also a paper by a doctoral student which I can’t find that found that minute amounts of adenosine were released through pressure, electric stimulation and more with needling and triggered pain relief in other receptors as it is a precursor. The injection needed to reasonably close but not on the point. In clinical practice there are multiple acu methods so this makes some sense to me The validation of the placebo is critical. Water was used for years as placebo in weight control but now we are finding it has an effect on weight loss.

 

Best

 

Amy

 

 

 

 

From: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Jeremy Howick <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To: Jeremy Howick <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Monday, August 22, 2016 at 6:38 AM
To: "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: A +B versus B design, acupunture and more

 

I think you can argue the case both ways: the sham controls for acupuncture may or may not be ‘legitimate’ placebo controls. See attached and I’ve pasted the relevant section below.

 

 

Trials comparing real acupuncture with acupuncture involving the Streitberger needle [a common sham control used in acupuncture trials] typically only show small benefits of real acupuncture (Furlan et al. 2005). At the same time, evidence suggests that treatment involving the Streitberger needle is more effective than placebo pills (Linde et al. 2010), while both real and sham acupuncture is more effective than conventional treatment for back pain (Furlan et al. 2005). The larger effects of the Streitberger needle compared with conventional pill placebos can be interpreted in two ways: either treatment with the Streitberger needle produces an especially large placebo effect (Ernst 2006 ), or it is not a ‘real’ placebo (Paterson and Dieppe 2005). If we accept a therapeutic theory stipulating that needle penetration is the only characteristic feature of acupuncture, then the Stretiberger needle is little more than a placebo. … However it is also possible that … the Streitberger needle might include some features that are best described as characteristic. To see how, [consider] another example[:] co-amilofruse is the generic name for a drug that contains two agents that are known to have positive effects on hypertension and oedema, namely amiloride and frusemide. If the ‘placebo’ control were identical to ‘real’ co-amilofruse apart from the fact that it was missing amiloride (but contained frusemide), then a trial involving a placebo control that contained frusemide might be successful at controlling for expectations, and measuring the effects of amiloride. Yet it would not be an adequate placebo control for co-amilofruse, because it contains a feature (frusemide) that is positively effective not via some expectational route. To test whether co-amilofruse was more effective than a placebo, a control treatment could contain neither amiloride nor frusemide.

 

… the Streitberger needle may not be a ‘true’ placebo control. This is because there is independent evidence that acupressure is effective for treating pain independently of the expectational effects of acupressure (Lee and Done 2004). Given that the Streitberger Needle (as well of course as real acupuncture) exerts pressure, this suggests that a sensible therapeutic theory—one that applies the criteria for classifying characteristic features as features that are effective and not due to expectation effects … would classify the exerted pressure as characteristic rather than incidental. To be sure the pressure exerted by real or Streitberger acupuncture needles could be less intense than the pressure exerted as part of real acupressure therapy. However we cannot rule out that even the less intense pressure is effective for treating pain in advance of further empirical studies. Moreover, it is argued that the acupuncture consultation (which is often much longer than a conventional consultation) should be classified as characteristic (Paterson and Dieppe 2005 p. 1203). There is certainly a robust body of evidence supporting the view that longer more empathetic consultations can have relevant positive

effects when compared with other (‘placebo’) consultations (Hojat et al. 2011).

 

The debate about how to classify features of acupuncture could be decided more easily if there were an accepted therapeutic theory for acupuncture. But in fact there is no accepted (from a conventional point of view) therapeutic theory…

Jeremy

 

 

T: +44 (0)1865 289 258 E: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>

http://www.phc.ox.ac.uk/team/jeremy-howick

 

Nuffield Department of Primary Care Health Sciences, University of Oxford

Radcliffe Primary Care Building, Radcliffe Observatory Quarter, Woodstock Road, Oxford, OX2 6GG

 

 

 

On 21/08/2016 18:43, "Evidence based health (EBH) on behalf of Brian Alper MD" <[log in to unmask] on behalf of [log in to unmask]> wrote:

 

How to interpret a sham control for acupuncture, and what that means for recommendations regarding acupuncture.  This is fascinating and complex, but how do you make it simple without biasing to one particular perspective?

 

We synthesized it recently in DynaMed Plus for the topic Acupuncture for chronic low back pain at http://www.dynamed.com/topics/dmp~AN~T906249/Acupuncture-for-chronic-low-back-pain

 

And summarized this for a quick read in European Journal of Integrative Medicine at http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1876382016301536

 

I posted on this through last week, commenting on different stages of the effort each day:

 

8-15-16: ACUPUNCTURE - How do we know what we know and how well we know it? . https://lnkd.in/e_CDcNe

8-16-16: EVIDENCE AWARENESS needed for good decision-making . https://lnkd.in/eD7d5PQ

8-17-16: EVIDENCE UNDERSTANDING - much more complex than evidence reporting . https://lnkd.in/erMSZGH

8-18-16: CLINICAL PERSPECTIVES - much more complex than guideline reporting . https://lnkd.in/e7rkM-d

8-19-16: SYNTHESIZED GUIDANCE -- when it all comes together ... lnkd.in/e_Yvyae

 

Brian S. Alper, MD, MSPH, FAAFP

Founder of DynaMed

Vice President of Innovations and EBM Development, EBSCO Health

www.dynamed.com, health.ebsco.com

Twitter: @BrianAlperMD

 

SYNTHESIZED GUIDANCE -- when it all comes together... lnkd.in/e_Yvyae

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Evidence based health (EBH) [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of healingjia Price

Sent: Friday, August 05, 2016 8:37 AM

To: [log in to unmask]

Subject: Re: A +B versus B design, acupunture and more

 

What would work would be useful as there are pitfalls mentioned in this design as well as waitlist and most certainly for deciding a sham for Acupuncture. It is not just this form of treatment, a lot of what is used for OT and PT  are in this category.

 

Best,

 

Amy

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Evidence based health (EBH) [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of jenny whitehall

Sent: Friday, August 05, 2016 8:05 AM

To: [log in to unmask]

Subject: Re: A +B versus B design, acupunture and more

 

________________________________________

From: Evidence based health (EBH) [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Juan Gérvas [[log in to unmask]]

Sent: 03 August 2016 09:28

To: [log in to unmask]

Subject: A +B versus B design, acupunture and more

 

Acupuntura (y otros tratamientos). Diseño de ensayo clínico que lleva a resultados positivos.

Acupunture (and others treatment). A trial design that generates only ''positive'' results.

In recent years, we have seen a plethora of RCTs adopting a design  where patients are randomized to receive either usual care (the control  group) or usual care plus the experimental treatment. Schematically this  design could be depicted as 'A + B versus B'. At first glance, such  comparisons may seem reasonable. However, on closer inspection, doubts  emerge regarding whether such RCTs are fair scientific tests of the  experimental intervention. These doubts originate from the theoretical  view that 'A plus B' will invariably amount to more than 'B' alone. Even  in cases where treatment A is a pure placebo, its placebo and other  nonspecific effects could lead to a better outcome in the experimental  group than in the control group. This would be particularly likely if i)  the experimental treatment is associated with sizable nonspecific  effects, ii) a subjective outcome measure is used, and iii) the  experimental intervention 'A' causes a deterioration of the condition  being treated.

http://www.jpgmonline.com/article.asp?issn=0022-3859;year=2008;volume=54;issue=3;spage=214;epage=216;aulast=Ernst

 

Effectiveness of acupuncture for the prevention of episodic migraine. Cochrane. NNTB of 4.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27351677?dopt=Abstract

-un saludo juan gérvas @JuanGrvas