Hi Juergen,
I would argue that in general, low CDT is going to be a bad idea unless using non parametric methods to find the right threshold for your blobs. This is what I read from Figure 1. with low CDT you have high E(n).
--
Dr Cyril Pernet,
Senior Academic Fellow, Neuroimaging Sciences
Centre for Clinical Brain Sciences (CCBS)
The University of Edinburgh
Chancellor's Building, Room GU426D
49 Little France Crescent
Edinburgh EH16 4SB
[log in to unmask]
http://www.sbirc.ed.ac.uk/cyril
http://www.ed.ac.uk/edinburgh-imaging
From: SPM (Statistical Parametric Mapping) <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Juergen Dukart <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 25 July 2016 12:36:45
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [SPM] cluster failure articleBest wishes,Thank you very much for your feedback.2. How does the Figure 1 in Friston 1994 referred to by Guillaume and Cyril anyhow predicts the results by Eklund et al. If I understand correctly, the referred Figure 1 and the corresponding text in Friston et al., say that the corresponding equation substantially overestimates the expected cluster size at lower thresholds. Is it not exactly the opposite of what Eklund shows?Dear all,to follow-up on this discussion.
1. First of all, it is important to note that the PNAS publication is showing an underestimation of the expected cluster-size in the context of fMRI analyses and cannot be extrapolated without cautiousness to any kinds of results. More specifically the validity of a specific voxel- and cluster-wise threshold needs to be established depending on the data. I just run a simulation computing the "false positives" (not truly false positives as the data used are real data with real signal so rather overestimating the true false positive rate) for parametric cluster significance by randomly permuting different group data for two-sample t-tests for the different thresholds with various data sets we have and added here the table showing that the validity is highly data and smoothness specific:
Juergen
2016-07-11 10:48 GMT+02:00 Guillaume Flandin <[log in to unmask]>:
Dear Mike,
Thanks for asking. We recently wrote a short comment on a preprint
version of this PNAS article by Eklund et al, and it is available here:
http://arxiv.org/abs/1606.08199
The conclusion reads:
> The results of these analyses [...] show that the random field theory
> provides valid inference based on spatial extent, provided its
> distributional assumptions are not violated (through the use of low
> cluster forming thresholds or smoothing).
SPM implements topological FDR:
http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.neuroimage.2008.05.021
http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.neuroimage.2009.10.090
that uses results from the random field theory and therefore relies on
the same assumptions.
Best regards,
Guillaume.
--
On 11/07/16 09:22, Mike wrote:
> Hi SPM experts,
>
> Does anyone notice a recent article in PNAS: "Cluster failure: Why fMRI inferences for spatial extent have inflated false-positive rates" by Eklund et al.? Although they analyzed resting-state data and I have no much idea about cluster inference, I wonder if the default parametric methods in SPM (such as FWE, FDR) are not reliable?
>
> Thanks. Mike
>
Guillaume Flandin, PhD
Wellcome Trust Centre for Neuroimaging
University College London
12 Queen Square
London WC1N 3BG
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.