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Ursula, I disagree with your choice of terms - that everyone has their own "truth" with respect to the matter of sexism and misogyny - if not the concept you've labeled with the term "truth." A truth is a claim that accords well with reality. There is a HUGE body of exquisitely well-documented evidence about the nature of sexism and misogyny in the world. So much of modern culture still sits atop a sad and hateful patriarchy that has existed for centuries, and notwithstanding the huge strides that have been made - more in some cultures than others - there is still much to do. Nonetheless, no truth can run counter to evidence. Evidence not only validates claims, but provides the means for virtually anyone to achieve a deeper understanding of the truth that the evidence points to, which in turn helps other agents more completely adapt their future behaviour to be consistent with that truth. So, if there's a claim being made, EVERYONE wins by presentation of evidence. And a claim made without evidence can be dismissed. And if that makes me a sexist person or even a misogynist, then so be it. \V/_ /fas *Prof. Filippo A. Salustri, Ph.D., P.Eng.* Email: [log in to unmask] Web: http://deseng.ryerson.ca/~fil/ ORCID: 0000-0002-3689-5112 <http://orcid.org/0000-0002-3689-5112> On 3 July 2016 at 12:32, Ursula Tischner <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > dear all > I have read some of the many posts about this issue without commenting. > but now I think this is too much. > > this list needs a bit of couple therapy .., urgently > > the basic principle of this is that everybody has their own 'truth' which > should be accepted by the others and there should be no 'winners' or > "losers" but the attermpt to understand and accept the other's truth and > attempts to deal with it in a constructive, positive and emphatic way > > if Luiza and other women feel that men in this list are unfair against > them and not treating women as equals (as is unfortunately still a wide > spread phenomenon even in the design profession) then this is their truth. > > and if men involved in this feel misjudged and falsely accused by that, > this is their truth. > > now, even though it is understandable that some may react in a very > childish way in light of such accusations this is not a constructive, grown > up and emphatic reaction. and gets nobody nowhere > > so can the guys in this list please accept that this issue might be a > delicate one and be extra careful how they deal with it? > and maybe the women could accept that the guys often are not even aware of > what they are doing and mostly do not mean to exclude women or put them > down but that is just the behavior they learned? > > they might need some extra careful and friendly explanation to help them > understand better. > > it would be so good to get (back) to a positive constructive and friendly > discussion > > thank you all > > Ursula Tischner > Econcept > agency for sustainable design > Cologne Germany > > Von meinem iPhone gesendet > > > Am 03.07.2016 um 17:54 schrieb Gunnar Swanson <[log in to unmask] > >: > > > > Anyone who has been involved in a design project of any size and scope > knows that other people's experience is vitally important even when that > experience is out of synch with one's own perception. I remind myself of > that when I hear statements about people feeling unsafe in various > circumstances.* (There are times when I worry that ideology and patterns of > description unduly add to people's feelings of danger, however.) Luiza has > repeatedly mentioned women being treated with hostility and *violence* on > this list. It is quite possible that in the oblivious certainty of being a > Western male, I have missed examples of this. (I am not being snotty; I > know that each of us is oblivious to the problems of others so it would be > highly unlikely that I don't also sometimes fall prey to that.) > > > > Out of curiosity, I have done some reading of the listserv archives and > fail to find anything that rises to Luiza's description. If her statements > are accurate, I hope someone will produce examples. School me, please. > > > > I am less concerned with what may be hyperbole about "countless" "daily > aggressions" than I am about specific statements made about particular > people. For instance, Luiza's implicit claim that Ken invited her to leave > the listserv indicates a casual attitude toward reporting factual > information, to say the least. > > > > Cameron rightly points out the "matter of internet record" of people's > characters so, for the record, I must repeat a question I asked and state > some conclusions of my own: > > > > In reply to Cameron's statement that "Liberalism at most has suggested > codes of conduct that can and do still let misogynist jokes through every > now and then," I asked him "Is there any distinction in decolonialism > between a misogynist joke and a joke about having been accused of being a > misogynist?" So far, he has not replied. Since then, Luiza has stated > "Cameron was absolutely right in calling out this appalling behavior. > Evidently, a list where a man may 'joke' about being a misogynist and be > met with protection and praise by a moderator is not a safe nor welcoming > space for women." Leaving aside what strikes me as a rather odd notion of > safety or lack thereof, I am compelled to point out the repeated obscuring > of this "matter of internet record." > > > > Luiza's claim that João joked "about being a misogynist" is merely > misleading where Cameron's claim that João made a misogynist joke is just > plain false. Cameron is smart enough to know what he was doing so I have to > point out that *his* character is, indeed, a "matter of internet record." > > > > I invite everyone to review the archives and decide if my description is > accurate: > > > > In December 2015, there was a post about social justice and design. João > challenged some of the premises of the post. His manner could be > interpreted with varying degrees of charity; I would not presume to > instruct anyone on that. Because the original post was made by a woman, a > subsequent post accused him of sexism in the tone of his reply. He stated > that he had responded to the content of the post and had not noted that the > name of the original poster was presumptively a female name. (I have no > reason to doubt that claim. I had read both the original post and João's > reply without noting names or speculating on genders.) > > > > In the subsequent conversation, the exchanges were perhaps somewhat > heated but if Luiza's description of "out-of-control, irrational vitriol" > was meant to describe it, she leads a much more protected and genteel life > than I do. Toward the end of the conversation, João replied to what he > seemed to consider vilification (including the charge of sexism) with a > lame joke** about being a good guy because he recycles and a good husband > because he was about to cook dinner. > > > > In the (non PhD-design) post (the source of this subject line) that Ken > linked us to about that exchange, João was called a fragile misogynist. > Although many self-appointed protectors of racial and sexual equity seem to > rather casually call people racist or misogynist, I strongly believe that > decent people take such accusations seriously. I believe it was over the > top to call João a misogynist based on that exchange. Whether anyone else > disagrees, it was clear that João thought it was. > > > > What should someone do in such circumstances? Slap the author of the > accusation with a glove and demand a duel over honor? Tacitly accept the > claim? João did what strikes me as the reasonable thing: he made an > objection and otherwise laughed it off. He did that by using a standard > gambit of humor--objecting to the modifier rather than the accusation > itself, claiming to not be a fragile misogynist because he was, in fact, > quite sturdy. > > > > Anyone with good English language reading comprehension who did not > understand the point he was making is either severely humor impaired or is > being purposefully obtuse. Whether one finds his positions rational or > regressive, claiming that his joke was misogynistic is stupid at best and > deliberate defamation as part of a pattern of bullying at worst. > > > > I do not know João any better than any other reader of this list does. > It is quite possible that he is a misogynist and a fragile one at that but > such accusations should be accompanied by evidence. > > > > I do want to know if women are being excluded from the conversation (or, > for that matter, if anyone is) and what I can do to help change that. I do > not, however, believe I am silencing people for their positions, gender, > race, hemisphere, or such when I insist that lying about people is > unacceptable. Both Luiza and Cameron have, I believe, deliberately defamed > and bullied under the claim that they were somehow victims of this listserv. > > > > > > Gunnar > > > > *Of course I understand that I have the privilege of *actually* being > safer than many people, even when in the same environment. I have traveled > (hitchhiked, in fact) through a Guatemalan war zone when it would have been > very dangerous for, say, a person of Mayan descent to do so; being a male > with an American passport didn't make me bulletproof but it was the next > best thing. I lived for ten years in a neighborhood where it was very > dangerous to be young, male, and black or Chicano but the closest thing I > had to direct rivalry with the V13 or the Shoreline Crips was my longtime > battle to paint over graffiti on the alley wall of my garage. I am white, > male, big enough that I don't look like an easy mark but not so large that > anyone is going to gain cred by taking me on. . . I say at least once a day > that I am the luckiest sonofabitch in the world (usually in reference to > the privilege of being married to Rosemary) but I probably don't fully > understand just how fortunate I am. > > > > **My assessment of João's jokes is, of course, subjective. I can see how > some people may have found them quite clever and others might have found > them to be confirmation of his being slightly out of touch and, perhaps, > mildly sexist. (I also understand that one day I may regret my crass use of > the term "lame" but for now--as someone who has recently sometimes needed a > cane to walk--I will claim lame privilege.) > > > > > > Gunnar Swanson > > East Carolina University > > graphic design program > > > > http://www.ecu.edu/cs-cfac/soad/graphic/index.cfm > > [log in to unmask] > > > > Gunnar Swanson Design Office > > 1901 East 6th Street > > Greenville NC 27858 > > USA > > > > http://www.gunnarswanson.com > > [log in to unmask] > > +1 252 258-7006 > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > PhD-Design mailing list <[log in to unmask]> > > Discussion of PhD studies and related research in Design > > Subscribe or Unsubscribe at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/phd-design > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > PhD-Design mailing list <[log in to unmask]> > Discussion of PhD studies and related research in Design > Subscribe or Unsubscribe at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/phd-design > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------------------------------------------------------------- PhD-Design mailing list <[log in to unmask]> Discussion of PhD studies and related research in Design Subscribe or Unsubscribe at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/phd-design -----------------------------------------------------------------