There are 7 messages totaling 1166 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. sea urchin ID (3)
  2. Effects of gelding on skeletal development (3)
  3. Effects of gelding on skeletal development - Horses

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Jun 2016 09:27:10 +0200
From:    Barbara Wilkens <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: sea urchin ID

  Only Paracentrotus lividus can be eaten
Barbara

Il 02.06.2016 10:30
Lídia Colominas Barberà ha scritto:

> If this information helps, they
are from Tarragona (mediterranean coast of Spain).
>
> 2016-06-02
10:23 GMT+02:00 Laura Llorente-Rodriguez :
>
>> Hi Lidia,
>> If you
only have spines is difficult to identify to species as Igor pointed
out. The shape and colour of the spines of your pictures do not allow to
discriminate (as far as I know) between three species: _Arbacia lixula,
Sphaerechinus granularis _or _Paracentrotus lividus_.
>> Best,
>>
Laura
>>
>> On 2 June 2016 at 08:20, Igor Gutiérrez wrote:
>>
>>> Hi
Lidia
>>>
>>> Yes, they are sea urchin spines. Identifying the species
can be more difficult, where is the site located? It could be
_Paracentrotus lividus_, but you should find out what other sea urchin
species are present in the coastal areas near the site and compare the
morphology and colour of the spines.
>>>
>>> Best wishes Igor
>>>
>>>
2016-06-02 9:13 GMT+02:00 Lídia Colominas Barberà :
>>>
>>>> Dear
Zooarch,
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone can help me in the identification of
these roman faunal remains?
>>>>
>>>>
http://zooarchaeology.ning.com/photo/sea-urchin-1 [1]
>>>>
>>>> I was
wondering if they are spines from sea urchins (_paracentrotus lividus_).

>>>>
>>>> I would very much appreciate any thoughts!
>>>>
>>>> Thank
you,
>>>>
>>>> Lídia Colominas
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Igor Gutiérrez
Zugasti
>>> Instituto Internacional de Investigaciones Prehistóricas de
Cantabria
>>> Universidad de Cantabria
>>> Ed. Interfacultativo, Avda.
de los Castros s/n
>>> 39005 Santander (Cantabria)
>>> Spain
>>>
Email: [log in to unmask] [3];[log in to unmask] [4]
>>>
Mobile: (0034) 625 446 888
>>>
Web:http://www.iiipc.unican.es/?page_id=394#gallery-details-2962 [5]
>>

>> --
>>
>> LAURA LLORENTE RODRÍGUEZ
>>
>> Marie Curie Research
Fellow
>>
>> BioArCh
>> Environment Building
>> Wentworth Way, York

>> YO10 5NG
>>
https://www.york.ac.uk/archaeology/staff/research-staff/llorente/ [7]




Con Tutto Incluso Light navighi fino a 20 Mega senza limiti e chiami a 0 cent/minuto verso tutti i fissi e i mobili in Italia a 19,95 euro/mese per sempre. In piu' ora l'attivazione e' Gratis! http://casa.tiscali.it/

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Jun 2016 12:12:21 +0100
From:    Martyn Allen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Effects of gelding on skeletal development

Dear colleagues,

Does anybody know of any useful studies of the effects of gelding on the skeletal development of horses? Looking back through previous Zooarch posts it seems that the issue has been raised before, but there does not appear to have been any answer in relation to horses specifically. Some online sources suggest that the age at which colts are castrated can have an effect, particularly on animals less than a year old, but I am not sure of the reliability of these sources. I can't find any robust scientific data which would indicate one way or the other.

Any help would be most appreciated.

All the best,
Martyn

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Jun 2016 16:45:21 +0200
From:    Jacopo De Grossi Mazzorin <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: sea urchin ID

Dear Lidia, also for me they are sea urchin spines. Also Sphaerechinus
granularis is edible (I ate it ...) and, following A. Palombi and M.
Santarelli (Gli animali commestibili dei mari d'Italia, Ed. Hoepli,
Milano, 1990), also the other sea urchins (see pp. 294-295). It is
possible that you can find between the zooarchaeological materials also
the elements of the  Aristotle’s lantern. I found it (with spines an
test's fragments) in the archaeozoological remains of the roman Sanctuary
of Tas Silg in Malta (I BC- I AD); I posted the photos in my ZooBook page
( http://zooarchaeology.ning.com/profile/JacopoDeGrossiMazzorin ).
Best,
Jacopo


> Dear Zooarch,
>
>
>
> Does anyone can help me in the identification of these roman faunal
> remains?
>
> http://zooarchaeology.ning.com/photo/sea-urchin-1
>
>
> I was wondering if they are spines from sea urchins (*paracentrotus
> lividus*).
>
>
>
>
> I would very much appreciate any thoughts!
>
> Thank you,
>
>
>
> Lídia Colominas
>

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Jun 2016 15:55:10 +0000
From:    Laszlo Bartosiewicz <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Effects of gelding on skeletal development

Hi Martyn,

I am eager to find similar information as I have only indirect "feelings" on the topic.

1: The age of castration makes a measurable difference in cattle metacarpal proportions. The later the intervention (into sexual maturity), the smaller the effect.
2: Secondary sexual dimorphism in horse is less pronounced in bone measurements than in cattle. Even if I expect the same physiological impact, it may be less visible.
3: Riding stallions was not impossible but more challenging than geldings. Castration may have been relatively common practice in many cultures. The younger the colt, the greater the effect on both behaviour and bones.

As long as we try to find reference skeletons of documented geldings vs stallions (indispensable for morphometric testing), we should also try to compile concrete hisorical notes in the veterinary literature on what castration timetables have been recommended? There must be a rich body of such data as armies may have depended on the practice.

Best wishes, Laszlo

________________________________________
From: Analysis of animal remains from archaeological sites <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Martyn Allen <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 05 June 2016 13:12
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [ZOOARCH] Effects of gelding on skeletal development

Dear colleagues,

Does anybody know of any useful studies of the effects of gelding on the skeletal development of horses? Looking back through previous Zooarch posts it seems that the issue has been raised before, but there does not appear to have been any answer in relation to horses specifically. Some online sources suggest that the age at which colts are castrated can have an effect, particularly on animals less than a year old, but I am not sure of the reliability of these sources. I can't find any robust scientific data which would indicate one way or the other.

Any help would be most appreciated.

All the best,
Martyn


------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Jun 2016 16:28:07 +0000
From:    "[log in to unmask]" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: sea urchin ID

Not only edible, but quite wonderful.  The name in Japanese is Uni and the gonads are used in sushi.
Carl Sandler Berkowitz
      From: Jacopo De Grossi Mazzorin <[log in to unmask]>
 To: [log in to unmask]
 Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2016 10:45 AM
 Subject: Re: [ZOOARCH] sea urchin ID

Dear Lidia, also for me they are sea urchin spines. Also Sphaerechinus
granularis is edible (I ate it ...) and, following A. Palombi and M.
Santarelli (Gli animali commestibili dei mari d'Italia, Ed. Hoepli,
Milano, 1990), also the other sea urchins (see pp. 294-295). It is
possible that you can find between the zooarchaeological materials also
the elements of the  Aristotle’s lantern. I found it (with spines an
test's fragments) in the archaeozoological remains of the roman Sanctuary
of Tas Silg in Malta (I BC- I AD); I posted the photos in my ZooBook page
( http://zooarchaeology.ning.com/profile/JacopoDeGrossiMazzorin ).
Best,
Jacopo


> Dear Zooarch,
>
>
>
> Does anyone can help me in the identification of these roman faunal
> remains?
>
> http://zooarchaeology.ning.com/photo/sea-urchin-1
>
>
> I was wondering if they are spines from sea urchins (*paracentrotus
> lividus*).
>
>
>
>
> I would very much appreciate any thoughts!
>
> Thank you,
>
>
>
> Lídia Colominas
>

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Jun 2016 10:38:25 -0600
From:    Kathryn Reusch <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Effects of gelding on skeletal development

Dear Martyn, Laszlo, and List,

Unfortunately, there are not a lot of studies of the effects of castration
in the horse. Cluny Jane Johnstone wrote a PhD thesis on the biometrics of
Roman horses, which can be found here:
https://www.york.ac.uk/media/archaeology/documents/researchdegrees/phdthesis/CJohnstonePhDvol1.pdf.
In Chapter 2 of the thesis, she discusses the effects of castration on the
skeleton, most of which is extrapolated from studies of sheep.

In most mammals, castration seems to affect the development of the skeleton
in a few consistent ways: 1) the long bones continue to grow, often getting
longer even than intact males', however, 2) the bones do not become as
robust as intact males', leading castrates' bones to appear long and
gracile, often with open epiphyses, 3) tooth development and eruption is
not affected, making this the most effective way of aging skeletons, and 4)
the younger the castration is performed, the more extreme the effects on
the skeleton. Most of the reasons for these effects stem from the
production of the sex hormones and the lower availability of those hormones
in young animals. No real systematic study has been carried out across
animal species or across breeds within a single species, but it's a project
I would love to see undertaken.

If anyone is interested, my PhD thesis, while mostly covering humans, does
investigate the changes to mammalian skeletons and includes a
zooarchaeological component, as well as an improved metric/statistical
method for picking castrates out of skeletal populations. If anyone would
like a copy or to discuss it with me, I'd love to hear from you.

Best wishes,
Kathryn Reusch
[log in to unmask]



On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 9:55 AM, Laszlo Bartosiewicz <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Hi Martyn,
>
> I am eager to find similar information as I have only indirect "feelings"
> on the topic.
>
> 1: The age of castration makes a measurable difference in cattle
> metacarpal proportions. The later the intervention (into sexual maturity),
> the smaller the effect.
> 2: Secondary sexual dimorphism in horse is less pronounced in bone
> measurements than in cattle. Even if I expect the same physiological
> impact, it may be less visible.
> 3: Riding stallions was not impossible but more challenging than geldings.
> Castration may have been relatively common practice in many cultures. The
> younger the colt, the greater the effect on both behaviour and bones.
>
> As long as we try to find reference skeletons of documented geldings vs
> stallions (indispensable for morphometric testing), we should also try to
> compile concrete hisorical notes in the veterinary literature on what
> castration timetables have been recommended? There must be a rich body of
> such data as armies may have depended on the practice.
>
> Best wishes, Laszlo
>
> ________________________________________
> From: Analysis of animal remains from archaeological sites <
> [log in to unmask]> on behalf of Martyn Allen <
> [log in to unmask]>
> Sent: 05 June 2016 13:12
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: [ZOOARCH] Effects of gelding on skeletal development
>
> Dear colleagues,
>
> Does anybody know of any useful studies of the effects of gelding on the
> skeletal development of horses? Looking back through previous Zooarch posts
> it seems that the issue has been raised before, but there does not appear
> to have been any answer in relation to horses specifically. Some online
> sources suggest that the age at which colts are castrated can have an
> effect, particularly on animals less than a year old, but I am not sure of
> the reliability of these sources. I can't find any robust scientific data
> which would indicate one way or the other.
>
> Any help would be most appreciated.
>
> All the best,
> Martyn
>

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 5 Jun 2016 16:52:50 -0400
From:    Pajx <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Effects of gelding on skeletal development - Horses


Hi Martyn (et al.)


I've been working on a publication on the Osteoarchaeology of Horses for the last couple of years, intended to clarify the available methods for the analysis of archaeological horses. As part of this I have been investigating the osteological evidence for castration. As Laszlo notes, horses are not very sexually dimorphic, which makes sexing them skeletally generally more difficult. Some older sources claimed geldings have poorly developed canines, but as Kathryn noted, dental development is not effected by castration. These horses with small canines were probably females. But the canines in males and females is a whole other discussion. Sample sizes, having enough materials, especially known specimens, is a particular problem with horses - essentially no good collections appear to exist. I've looked at quite a few horse skeletons, including known geldings (only a few of these), and I believe I have a preliminary method. I intend to produce a series of articles regarding horse osteoarchaeology in the near future, hopefully by the end of the year.


Unless you have a reasonably intact pelvis, you've no hope of identifying geldings. Though if you had large populations (which as far as I know don't exist in NW Europe) you might be able to use some statistic analysis re Cluny Johnstone's limb gracility indexes, but you would have to have pretty complete animals and a good age estimate. Bone gracility and ht x width indexes are significantly dependent on age -- something ignored in past evaluations of horse 'types' based on those indexes.



As regards the veterinary clinical literature - I haven't found much applicable data. In the husbandry literature, I've collected a variety of sources mostly from the Roman period onward. The modern literature is not as useful as manuals from prior to the 1920's or ethnographic data from cultures actively using horses, not keeping them essentially as pets or sporting animals.


The Roman period seems the most likely one to find geldings in early Britain. Otherwise, possibly later Medieval or Modern. Although, of course, it's possible any period, as there is little historical evidence on cultural preferences in Britain. The Hungarians and the Mongols practiced it extensively.


I'm assuming you're Dr. Martyn Allen at Reading, so you've already talked to Robin Bendrey about his work? I'm curious about your interest. Are you after an identification of specific bones?

cheers
Pam


Pamela J Cross
Zoo/Bioarchaeology
Archaeological Sciences, University of Bradford,  BD7 1DP  UK
p.j.cross (at) student.bradford.ac.uk  / pajx(at) aol.com
http://www.barc.brad.ac.uk/resstud_Cross.php
http://bradford.academia.edu/PamCross


Life at the Edge  "liminality...enable[s] evolution and growth ... Boundaries and edges also characterize the dynamics of landscapes ... environments..[both intellectual and physical]." Andrews & Roberts 2012, Liminal Landscapes



-----Original Message-----
From: Kathryn Reusch <[log in to unmask]>
To: ZOOARCH <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sun, Jun 5, 2016 9:48 am
Subject: Re: [ZOOARCH] Effects of gelding on skeletal development



Dear Martyn, Laszlo, and List,


Unfortunately, there are not a lot of studies of the effects of castration in the horse. Cluny Jane Johnstone wrote a PhD thesis on the biometrics of Roman horses, which can be found here: https://www.york.ac.uk/media/archaeology/documents/researchdegrees/phdthesis/CJohnstonePhDvol1.pdf. In Chapter 2 of the thesis, she discusses the effects of castration on the skeleton, most of which is extrapolated from studies of sheep.


In most mammals, castration seems to affect the development of the skeleton in a few consistent ways: 1) the long bones continue to grow, often getting longer even than intact males', however, 2) the bones do not become as robust as intact males', leading castrates' bones to appear long and gracile, often with open epiphyses, 3) tooth development and eruption is not affected, making this the most effective way of aging skeletons, and 4) the younger the castration is performed, the more extreme the effects on the skeleton. Most of the reasons for these effects stem from the production of the sex hormones and the lower availability of those hormones in young animals. No real systematic study has been carried out across animal species or across breeds within a single species, but it's a project I would love to see undertaken.


If anyone is interested, my PhD thesis, while mostly covering humans, does investigate the changes to mammalian skeletons and includes a zooarchaeological component, as well as an improved metric/statistical method for picking castrates out of skeletal populations. If anyone would like a copy or to discuss it with me, I'd love to hear from you.


Best wishes,
Kathryn Reusch
[log in to unmask]







On Sun, Jun 5, 2016 at 9:55 AM, Laszlo Bartosiewicz <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Hi Martyn,

I am eager to find similar information as I have only indirect "feelings" on the topic.

1: The age of castration makes a measurable difference in cattle metacarpal proportions. The later the intervention (into sexual maturity), the smaller the effect.
2: Secondary sexual dimorphism in horse is less pronounced in bone measurements than in cattle. Even if I expect the same physiological impact, it may be less visible.
3: Riding stallions was not impossible but more challenging than geldings. Castration may have been relatively common practice in many cultures. The younger the colt, the greater the effect on both behaviour and bones.

As long as we try to find reference skeletons of documented geldings vs stallions (indispensable for morphometric testing), we should also try to compile concrete hisorical notes in the veterinary literature on what castration timetables have been recommended? There must be a rich body of such data as armies may have depended on the practice.

Best wishes, Laszlo

________________________________________
From: Analysis of animal remains from archaeological sites <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Martyn Allen <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 05 June 2016 13:12
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: [ZOOARCH] Effects of gelding on skeletal development


Dear colleagues,

Does anybody know of any useful studies of the effects of gelding on the skeletal development of horses? Looking back through previous Zooarch posts it seems that the issue has been raised before, but there does not appear to have been any answer in relation to horses specifically. Some online sources suggest that the age at which colts are castrated can have an effect, particularly on animals less than a year old, but I am not sure of the reliability of these sources. I can't find any robust scientific data which would indicate one way or the other.

Any help would be most appreciated.

All the best,
Martyn






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End of ZOOARCH Digest - 4 Jun 2016 to 5 Jun 2016 (#2016-131)
************************************************************