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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

>
> I agree with Meg. But it is not just a question of a more or less
> “welcoming” atmosphere. Different churches appeal to different persons not
> just according to their personality (happy introverts or extroverts) but
> also according to tradition. Being a Scandinavian and Lutheran, I feel it
> is very strange to greet one another with “peace be with you” when in an
> Anglican church. Overwhelmed by strangers, I try to avoid it. My point is:
> there are so many ways of “doing church”; but the really transforming
> events are for most people those, which happen in familiar circumstances.
> Sunday, I took part in a English, Arab, Syrian service in my local church
> held by an organisation, which organises services all over Denmark in order
> to help refugees and migrants to find a home here. One of the experiences
> was to sing a hymn by Paul Gerhardt in English (which I am of course mainly
> familiar with in Danish and German) - AND remembering the harrowing
> circumstances under which he wrote it. Had I, on the other hand, been
> sitting in an Anglican church I would probably not have had enough peace of
> mind to be able to reflect properly on the history of Europe (and Germany)
> in the 17th century and what is happening right now in the Levant. What I
> am trying to say here is that because we have this really huge tradition of
> hymnal singing in Denmark, the familiar music is a very important part for
> me to get into “church-mode”. Different churches represents different
> traditions and this is what makes it more or less familiar. Traditions are
> perhaps more important than more formal criteria (e.g. welcoming/not
> welcoming)


My parish is predominantly Arab (mostly with origins in a particular
village in Lebanon). There's one family in the parish that sort of
"adopted" my wife and me after we moved to town (the sons were among my
altar boys when I moved here). Anyway, the woman in the family made it her
mission years ago to teach me to be "Lebanese," i.e., greeting warmly with
kisses and all that. I tend to stiffen up in such situations because my
comfort zone of personal space is about 2 1/2 feet. She would chide me and
make me practice and I would explain that I'm Norwegian (though more German
and Irish, actually) and therefore handicapped in this department.

I was formerly Lutheran and found Anglican environments to be relatively
comfortable, but, then, I'm American, so every cultural/ecclesiastical
tradition has been "infiltrated/compromised/adjusted/indigenized" (whatever
word is most important) to the American cultural landscape.

Liturgical structures and music play a huge role for me. When I was a
child, I would occasionally go to a Presbyterian church with a friend of
mine and it felt weirdly informal (although it was "high church" by
Presbyterian standards). In college, I went to different Lutheran parishes,
to a Catholic mass with friends, and periodically to an Anglo-Catholic
Episcopal church with another friend (the guy who got me to go back to
church with him when I was 18). I was disappointed by the lack of
"smells-and-bells" in the Catholic service, but felt more at home in the
"high church" Anglican setting than in my own Lutheran parish (which over
the course of a couple of years had watered down its liturgical practice
greatly in imitation of evangelical protestants). Had I remained Lutheran,
I would have sought out a "high church" style parish. The first time I went
to an Orthodox service, I was struck by how familiar it was in terms of
certain liturgical structures while also being very foreign in terms of
music and such (fortunately, it was mostly English). At this point (I've
been Orthodox for more than half my life now), western services (I used to
work in a Catholic school, so I had to take students to mass) feel very
foreign to me.

Of course, there are certain things that I think may have predisposed me to
liking Byzantine music. First, I'm a progressive metal bassist (which means
a lot of heavy metal, classical, and blues influences), so I appreciate the
minor intervals). Second, I like the "small, simple" feel, though it's
really liturgically maximalist.

- Kurt

On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 1:36 AM, Karen Schousboe <[log in to unmask]
> wrote:

> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> Dear all
>
> I agree with Meg. But it is not just a question of a more or less
> “welcoming” atmosphere. Different churches appeal to different persons not
> just according to their personality (happy introverts or extroverts) but
> also according to tradition. Being a Scandinavian and Lutheran, I feel it
> is very strange to greet one another with “peace be with you” when in an
> Anglican church. Overwhelmed by strangers, I try to avoid it. My point is:
> there are so many ways of “doing church”; but the really transforming
> events are for most people those, which happen in familiar circumstances.
> Sunday, I took part in a English, Arab, Syrian service in my local church
> held by an organisation, which organises services all over Denmark in order
> to help refugees and migrants to find a home here. One of the experiences
> was to sing a hymn by Paul Gerhardt in English (which I am of course mainly
> familiar with in Danish and German) - AND remembering the harrowing
> circumstances under which he wrote it. Had I, on the other hand, been
> sitting in an Anglican church I would probably not have had enough peace of
> mind to be able to reflect properly on the history of Europe (and Germany)
> in the 17th century and what is happening right now in the Levant. What I
> am trying to say here is that because we have this really huge tradition of
> hymnal singing in Denmark, the familiar music is a very important part for
> me to get into “church-mode”. Different churches represents different
> traditions and this is what makes it more or less familiar. Traditions are
> perhaps more important than more formal criteria (e.g. welcoming/not
> welcoming)
>
> Karen
> _____________________________
>
> WWW.MEDIEVALHISTORIES.COM <http://www.medievalhistories.com>
>
> Subscribe to our NEWSLETTER and
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>
>
>
> On 27 Apr 2016, at 17:22, Cormack, Margaret Jean <[log in to unmask]
> <[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
>
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> I regularly give an assignment where students are required to visit a
> church other than their own denomination and report on its appearance, the
> service, etc. One of the things I ask about is "welcoming".
> Depending on what they have grown up with, I get responses corresponding
> to both of the below.
> On the one hand "really welcoming" in a nice way (this, by the way, often
> in African American churches, my students mostly being white, and in spite
> of the horrors at Mother Emanual last summer)
> "Guests were asked to stand up and identify ourselves" - some students do
> this, others don't.
> "It was really formal, no one paid any attention to me, didn't seem
> friendly at all."
> "I was relieved that I could just be there and not "do  anything""
> Meg
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
> culture [[log in to unmask]
> <[log in to unmask]>] on behalf of Anne Willis [
> [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 27, 2016 7:10 AM
> *To:* [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
> *Subject:* Re: [M-R] St Amphibalus (was hair relics?)
>
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> We once had a very vicious comment in our visitors’ book from someone who
> had visited for quiet prayer, and felt that they had been ‘assaulted’ by
> the welcome and the offer of leaflets from the stewards
>
>
> OTOH I can still feel the disappointment when I was ignored in a church I
> visited when my mother was dying
>
>
> Very difficult
>
>
> Anne
> *From:* medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
> culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> <[log in to unmask]>] *On Behalf Of *Madeleine Gray
> *Sent:* 27 April 2016 11:19
> *To:* [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
> *Subject:* Re: [M-R] St Amphibalus (was hair relics?)
>
>
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> I do just occasionally wonder how the Protestant Reformation martyrs would
> feel about being commemorated like this!
> And I do sometimes feel that people are happier about taking part in
> things in cathedrals precisely because they are big and anonymous. We are
> encouraged to welcome newcomers to our parish churches, make them feel
> welcome, talk to them ... but I do wonder whether can be counter-productive.
> And how does this relate to the dynamic of community worship in the
> medieval period?
> Maddy
> ---
> Prof. Madeleine Gray
> University of South Wales
> http://www.heritagetortoise.co.uk
> <https://owa.cofc.edu/owa/redir.aspx?REF=ik4vjHDDCVhhih4dyL9A_tirp6QDl74KtnDEzQty_cfmThoGr27TCAFodHRwczovL3VybGRlZmVuc2UucHJvb2Zwb2ludC5jb20vdjIvdXJsP3U9aHR0cC0zQV9fd3d3Lmhlcml0YWdldG9ydG9pc2UuY28udWsmZD1EUU1GYVEmYz03TVNTV3k5QnMyeW9jak5RenVyeE9RJnI9Y2s5REdNVVZ1ZnJTclM1N3RfVVQ5azZJbi10VnFYa3VXNm9hRkwxMFhRWSZtPTNvZTFCQmFTLWVLdEphNkM0VE90YmVJd09tejZIcDlubDdoLVNDQVQxQWcmcz1xc2FNOG5CUWo5WmMtTkhJQ3p3QzQ1UEJLa2dFRTVROVM2amlIYWxwazRnJmU9>
> http://twitter.com/heritagepilgrim
> <https://owa.cofc.edu/owa/redir.aspx?REF=aco8hw4Olm177O2oT2xy-dtCt-qjP_LI1bxC_1eISOXmThoGr27TCAFodHRwczovL3VybGRlZmVuc2UucHJvb2Zwb2ludC5jb20vdjIvdXJsP3U9aHR0cC0zQV9fdHdpdHRlci5jb21faGVyaXRhZ2VwaWxncmltJmQ9RFFNRmFRJmM9N01TU1d5OUJzMnlvY2pOUXp1cnhPUSZyPWNrOURHTVVWdWZyU3JTNTd0X1VUOWs2SW4tdFZxWGt1VzZvYUZMMTBYUVkmbT0zb2UxQkJhUy1lS3RKYTZDNFRPdGJlSXdPbXo2SHA5bmw3aC1TQ0FUMUFnJnM9cUtZeXpNdy0tMlktSVd1WU1iWGt2VEYtSFJ5dU1XQUxGWHYta3JUbVhLbyZlPQ..>
>
> 'The communication of the dead is tongued with fire beyond the language of
> the living' (T. S. Eliot, Little Gidding)
>
>
> On 27/04/2016 10:47, Rosemary Hayes-Milligan and Andrew Milligan wrote:
>
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> I'm reminded by my friend at St Albans that
>
>
> Amphibalus is one of our new nave screen sculptures (along with St Alban,
> Alban Roe (reformation Catholic martyr) George Tankerfield (reformation
> Protestant martyr) St Elizabeth Romanova, Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Oscar
> Romero
>
>
> St Albans is clearly (along with other Anglican cathedrals?) enjoying
> resurrecting pre-Reformation customs.  I gather the cathedrals are very
> lively where parish churches are not.
>
>
> Rosemary Hayes
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Erica Obey
> <https://owa.cofc.edu/owa/redir.aspx?REF=1a-eMulARHT_nvLBhmGA2RHolwutr8P_OBN_QCrJgvTmThoGr27TCAFtYWlsdG86ZXJpY2Eub2JleUBWRVJJWk9OLk5FVA..>
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> <https://owa.cofc.edu/owa/redir.aspx?REF=B81NBGqPwmZGTbGEMuZEUdGdezQYXLBANcXIu8lU0-rmThoGr27TCAFtYWlsdG86TUVESUVWQUwtUkVMSUdJT05ASklTQ01BSUwuQUMuVUs.>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 27, 2016 12:04 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [M-R] St Amphibalus (was hair relics?)
>
>
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> Thank you, Maddy and Rosemary for filling in the gaps of my knowledge.
> And thank you Johns Briggs and Dillon for enhancing my appreciation of my
> always-beloved Terry Pratchett.  And yes, it took me some googling, but I
> got the joke!
>
>
> Erica
>
>
> http://www.ericaobey.com
> <https://owa.cofc.edu/owa/redir.aspx?REF=t23lsEEVneOtQbiqxRzxqONDuKMt3KQajO4C9xGKjwHmThoGr27TCAFodHRwczovL3VybGRlZmVuc2UucHJvb2Zwb2ludC5jb20vdjIvdXJsP3U9aHR0cC0zQV9fd3d3LmVyaWNhb2JleS5jb20mZD1EUU1GYVEmYz03TVNTV3k5QnMyeW9jak5RenVyeE9RJnI9Y2s5REdNVVZ1ZnJTclM1N3RfVVQ5azZJbi10VnFYa3VXNm9hRkwxMFhRWSZtPTNvZTFCQmFTLWVLdEphNkM0VE90YmVJd09tejZIcDlubDdoLVNDQVQxQWcmcz14blF3RzdjdFYtYmwtNlZOd2lrdkdSNVhrWUNFSy1QdWk4SmRLbXRIQ05RJmU9>
> Coming in September, *The Lazarus Vector*
> <https://owa.cofc.edu/owa/redir.aspx?REF=nxWElcqfE4Kv4aJTL8fqIfmj4OiFa9vH5dUqJXiYI-3mThoGr27TCAFodHRwczovL3VybGRlZmVuc2UucHJvb2Zwb2ludC5jb20vdjIvdXJsP3U9aHR0cC0zQV9fd3d3LmFtYXpvbi5jb21fTGF6YXJ1cy0yRFZlY3Rvci0yREVyaWNhLTJET2JleV9kcF8xOTQzMDc1MjIwX3JlZi0zRHNyLTVGMS01RjEtM0ZpZS0zRFVURjgtMjZxaWQtM0QxNDYxMjQwNzkyLTI2c3ItM0Q4LTJEMS0yNmtleXdvcmRzLTNEdGhlLTJCbGF6YXJ1cy0yQnZlY3RvciZkPURRTUZhUSZjPTdNU1NXeTlCczJ5b2NqTlF6dXJ4T1Emcj1jazlER01VVnVmclNyUzU3dF9VVDlrNkluLXRWcVhrdVc2b2FGTDEwWFFZJm09M29lMUJCYVMtZUt0SmE2QzRUT3RiZUl3T216NkhwOW5sN2gtU0NBVDFBZyZzPW1hb0RnRDNWUlBfcUE0Sk13WmM1ckFDaVZrRlg1VDc4azJHUFBBSHB2eHcmZT0.>
>
>
> *From:* medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
> culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> <https://owa.cofc.edu/owa/redir.aspx?REF=B81NBGqPwmZGTbGEMuZEUdGdezQYXLBANcXIu8lU0-rmThoGr27TCAFtYWlsdG86TUVESUVWQUwtUkVMSUdJT05ASklTQ01BSUwuQUMuVUs.>
> ] *On Behalf Of *Madeleine Gray
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 26, 2016 2:22 PM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> <https://owa.cofc.edu/owa/redir.aspx?REF=B81NBGqPwmZGTbGEMuZEUdGdezQYXLBANcXIu8lU0-rmThoGr27TCAFtYWlsdG86TUVESUVWQUwtUkVMSUdJT05ASklTQ01BSUwuQUMuVUs.>
> *Subject:* Re: [M-R] St Amphibalus (was hair relics?)
>
>
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> OK - this is mainly based on Jeremy Knight's article 'Britain's Other
> Martyrs: Julius, Aaron and Alban at Caerleon' in *Alban and St Albans:
> Roman and Medieval Architecture, Art and Archaeology*, ed. Martin Henig
> and Phillip Lindley, British Archaeological Association Conference
> Transactions xxiv, 2001. (Jeremy always said the late lamented University
> of Wales, Newport would have been better calling itself the University of
> Caerleon-upon-Usk.)
> Amphibalus is the name traditionally given to the priest who was sheltered
> by Alban in Verulamium and converted him to Christianity. Alban eventually
> disguised himself as Amphibalus, wearing the priest's cloak (which may be
> the origin of the name) and was martyred in his stead. According to later
> tradition Amphibalus went back to Caerleon, where he converted Julius and
> Aaron, but eventually returned to Verulamium and was martyred near there.
> His relics were 'miraculously' discovered in the late C12 and installed in
> a reliquary in St Alban's. This was damaged in the Reformation but
> reconstructed in the C19 and has recently been restored.
> There is also a long-standing tradition of a connection between St Alban
> and Caerleon, possibly an offshoot of the cults of SS Julius and Aaron
> there. Jeremy Knight suggests Alban's link with Caerleon may actually have
> derived from the acquisition of some of his relics. Robert de Chandos's c
> 1113 grant of Christchurch near Caerleon to his abbey of Bec and its
> dependent priory at Goldcliff included the*ecclesiam Julii et Aaron*.
> When the charter was confirmed by the future Henry II in 1143 the martyrium
> was described as *Ecclesiam Sanctorum Julii et Aaron atque Alban*.
> Levison in 'St Alban and St Albans', *Antiquity* 16 (1941) pointed out
> that St Alban's relics were translated in 1129, there were links between St
> Albans and Bec through Abbot Paul of St Albans and his cousin Lanfranc, and
> it was possible that a fragment of the relics became available.
>
> Geoffrey of Monmouth then picked up on the story, when he described King
> Arthur wearing his crown at Whitsun in Caerleon. He said Caerleon had two
> great churches, a nunnery in honour of Julius and a house of regular canons
> dedicated to St Aaron, plus the third metropolitan cathedral of Britain
> with a university at which the chair of theology was held by St Amphibalus.
> The Caerleon museum catalogue in 1909 listed a photograph of a statue of St
> Amphibalus and described him as a native of the town!
> Or was he just the first academic gown?
> Maddy
> ---
> Prof. Madeleine Gray
> University of South Wales
> http://www.heritagetortoise.co.uk
> <https://owa.cofc.edu/owa/redir.aspx?REF=ik4vjHDDCVhhih4dyL9A_tirp6QDl74KtnDEzQty_cfmThoGr27TCAFodHRwczovL3VybGRlZmVuc2UucHJvb2Zwb2ludC5jb20vdjIvdXJsP3U9aHR0cC0zQV9fd3d3Lmhlcml0YWdldG9ydG9pc2UuY28udWsmZD1EUU1GYVEmYz03TVNTV3k5QnMyeW9jak5RenVyeE9RJnI9Y2s5REdNVVZ1ZnJTclM1N3RfVVQ5azZJbi10VnFYa3VXNm9hRkwxMFhRWSZtPTNvZTFCQmFTLWVLdEphNkM0VE90YmVJd09tejZIcDlubDdoLVNDQVQxQWcmcz1xc2FNOG5CUWo5WmMtTkhJQ3p3QzQ1UEJLa2dFRTVROVM2amlIYWxwazRnJmU9>
> http://twitter.com/heritagepilgrim
> <https://owa.cofc.edu/owa/redir.aspx?REF=aco8hw4Olm177O2oT2xy-dtCt-qjP_LI1bxC_1eISOXmThoGr27TCAFodHRwczovL3VybGRlZmVuc2UucHJvb2Zwb2ludC5jb20vdjIvdXJsP3U9aHR0cC0zQV9fdHdpdHRlci5jb21faGVyaXRhZ2VwaWxncmltJmQ9RFFNRmFRJmM9N01TU1d5OUJzMnlvY2pOUXp1cnhPUSZyPWNrOURHTVVWdWZyU3JTNTd0X1VUOWs2SW4tdFZxWGt1VzZvYUZMMTBYUVkmbT0zb2UxQkJhUy1lS3RKYTZDNFRPdGJlSXdPbXo2SHA5bmw3aC1TQ0FUMUFnJnM9cUtZeXpNdy0tMlktSVd1WU1iWGt2VEYtSFJ5dU1XQUxGWHYta3JUbVhLbyZlPQ..>
>
> 'The communication of the dead is tongued with fire beyond the language of
> the living' (T. S. Eliot, Little Gidding)
>
>
> On 26/04/2016 14:42, Erica Obey wrote:
>
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> I would very much like to hear more about this St. Amphibalus myself.
>
>
> Erica
>
>
> http://www.ericaobey.com
> <https://owa.cofc.edu/owa/redir.aspx?REF=PTuzCAgO1ohpSGN-1dbIg53a9vpLWwebpG52t6lDk7zmThoGr27TCAFodHRwczovL3VybGRlZmVuc2UucHJvb2Zwb2ludC5jb20vdjIvdXJsP3U9aHR0cC0zQV9fd3d3LmVyaWNhb2JleS5jb21fJmQ9RFFNRmFRJmM9N01TU1d5OUJzMnlvY2pOUXp1cnhPUSZyPWNrOURHTVVWdWZyU3JTNTd0X1VUOWs2SW4tdFZxWGt1VzZvYUZMMTBYUVkmbT0zb2UxQkJhUy1lS3RKYTZDNFRPdGJlSXdPbXo2SHA5bmw3aC1TQ0FUMUFnJnM9N291WmM3NGNpZkpSRkVaNU1mdUVlUzlJVXEtSTM0RmkzZ2pwN19zWldSayZlPQ..>
> Coming in September, *The Lazarus Vector*
> <https://owa.cofc.edu/owa/redir.aspx?REF=nxWElcqfE4Kv4aJTL8fqIfmj4OiFa9vH5dUqJXiYI-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.>
>
>
>
> Anglican attitudes to relics are interesting to say the least. The Dean of
> St Albans is apparently keen to get a relic of St Amphibalus, mythical prof
> at my university of Caerleon upon Usk - I did ask what it would actually
> mean to him but he didn't answer.
>
>
> Sorry, but this sounds remarkably Hogwarts-ish....
>
>
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