Thanks Carol

I have suggested this in the past and whilst it wasn’t ruled impossible, it was suggested that the governors of HESA might not want to fight the ensuing battle with the compilers (when they undoubtedly objected). We’d need to build support for this with our institutional representatives (who tend to be VCs rather than Planners).

I’ve also suggested that the full released datasets are put into HEIDI once the tables are published – this is complicated by the data request itself potentially being considered as IP belonging to the requestor and thus not something HESA can use for other things. There’s also the issue that institutions sometimes provide data corrections direct to compilers.

I don’t want to be defeatist with these ideas, as I think they do have mileage, it’s just they need some effort from us all to build momentum.

Ray

(Steve: Whilst I respect your request about replies, I believe there are plenty of people following this discussion – if you’re using Outlook, you can right-click the message and select ‘Move > Always move messages in this conversation…’ to deposit the current conversation and future replies somewhere less obtrusive.)

Dr Ray Lashley PhD

Planning and Information Officer

University of Essex

T 01206 872292

E [log in to unmask]

► https://www.essex.ac.uk/spcs/contacts

L Finance Office

I AM ESSEX

REBEL WITH A CAUSE

(Mondays, Wednesdays and Thursdays)

From: Academic, financial or space planning in UK universities [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carol Ann Dowd
Sent: 20 April 2016 15:14
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: University league table publication dates 2016

Perhaps HESA could release the data with a special caveat allowing (or even demanding?) the sharing of output amongst those publicly funded HEIs whose data is included?

CA.

From: Academic, financial or space planning in UK universities [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Lucy Hodson [lhh10]
Sent: 20 April 2016 14:51
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: University league table publication dates 2016

That’s why we have to be vigilant about data governance and onward use with regard to HESA Data Future through which data at significantly greater levels of detail will submitted.

Lucy

From: Academic, financial or space planning in UK universities [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Lashley, Ray
Sent: 20 April 2016 13:53
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: University league table publication dates 2016

And following on from this train of thought, I have often expressed frustration that HESA are not getting full market value for our data. HESA colleagues, however, are right to point out that the data is effectively generated from public funding, and the prevailing view in Government is that such data should be freely available (which I agree with as a private individual, as much as I dislike the consequences to my professional life). HESA are effectively limited to ‘selling’ their compilation and analysis services, not the data itself.

Where we want to use the processed data for the public good (i.e. improving our standards and performance to the public good and largely with the use of public money), it therefore seems galling to me that we should effectively be asked to pay to use processed data otherwise freely available in order to do so. We are not individuals or organisations seeking profits for ourselves or shareholders – we give up our data freely, including for others to profit from, only to be told that we are due nothing in return (noting again that HESA are effectively only charging for their processing services, not for the data itself). I don’t object to third parties profiting from the use of our data, but I do find it difficult to understand the justification of seeking to profit from us, when we’re trying to spend public money to greater effect. It strikes me as capitalism devoid of compassion – it’s not about creating a better experience for prospective students because we, who are not making profits ourselves, are not allowed to use the output to that end. Compilers should be morally free (legally, they clearly are) to take a share of the profits from those who expect to profit themselves, but not from those who do not seek self-profit.

The argument of protecting IP within the league tables is quite a weak one as it’s not too difficult (to someone with a numerical degree) to steal the IP as things currently stand. </rant>

I don’t think this is an issue that will go away, and it won’t become any clearer whilst the sector is going through such change as is expected in the next few years. It’s not going to be a priority to resolve either, though there is an outside chance we can steer a relevant part of those changes as they swing past. I’ll keep trying to avoid the rants* and come up with constructive suggestions in the appropriate forums, and I’m happy to listen to or team up with others in order to do so.

Ray

*Colleagues on the TPWG may have opinions on how successful I am at this.

Dr Ray Lashley PhD

Planning and Information Officer

University of Essex

T 01206 872292

E [log in to unmask]

► https://www.essex.ac.uk/spcs/contacts

L Finance Office

I AM ESSEX

REBEL WITH A CAUSE

(Mondays, Wednesdays and Thursdays)

From: Academic, financial or space planning in UK universities [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Forshaw John
Sent: 20 April 2016 13:05
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: University league table publication dates 2016

Hi Sally

This has been a very useful discussion and thank you to John for sharing the compiler’s view. I take your point that CUG and others help to keep our HESA subscriptions down. The other perspective, of course, is that if the league table compilers made life too difficult for us then we have the option, individually or collectively, to refuse to release our data which would somewhat curtail the business of the compilers. So there is a balance to be struck and it would be helpful in your discussions if you could explore a more pragmatic approach from the compilers in letting us replicate aspects. I would also have thought this has some benefit to them since having their league table banded around the community is surely a sign that we value their particular table over others and therefore provides them a level of ‘endorsement’ and brand recognition.

Many thanks for continuing to fight our corner.

Kind regards

John

John Forshaw

Director of Planning | Legal, Planning & Governance Directorate

Maxwell Building 6^th Floor, University of Salford, Salford, M5 4WT

t: +44 (0) 161 2956812

PA Ella Gainsborough

[log in to unmask] | www.salford.ac.uk

From: Academic, financial or space planning in UK universities [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sally Irene Turnbull
Sent: 20 April 2016 12:53
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: University league table publication dates 2016

Thanks for sharing this John.

As this clearly illustrates, a DIY approach to sharing the data amongst ourselves is not the way forward. Although many of us regard this data as ‘ours’, we do have to recognise that league table compilers purchase it from HESA (and we get a return from that because the purchase price keeps the cost of our HESA subscriptions down) and apply their own methodology to it. The methodology is their own intellectual property and the league table is the product they sell to make a living.

We do supply an increasing amount of information directly, but we can always choose not to do so. Most of us don’t take this option because we feel that the visibility that such websites offer us is worth the work.

I fully intend to ask again, but I just wanted to share a bit more from the compilers’ perspective – their position is not unreasonable, it just doesn’t help us very much!

I’ll let you know if I hear anything back.

Best wishes,

Sally

From: Academic, financial or space planning in UK universities [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Lumley
Sent: 20 April 2016 12:37
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: University league table publication dates 2016

Hi all,

Please be aware that the CUG takes a very dim view of their spreadsheet being shared amongst the planning community. When we sent round a copy a couple of years ago in response to a request for a spreadsheet we received the following;

The data, although from public sources, is purchased by us to create the various tables and is our copyright. Our terms and conditions, reproduced below, clearly state that users may print off one copy, or download extracts for personal use as private individuals.

Any other such activity such as downloading entire tables and/or distributing copies to others is clearly a breach of the terms and conditions. We are prepared to overlook this breach on this occasion but would ask that you donate the sum of £50 to our chosen charity.

We value our close relations with the university community and do not unreasonably withhold permission to use our data. In future we would ask that you approach TheCompleteUniversityGuide.co.uk for permission if you require the data for a specific purpose. We will be pleased to consider your request and may well grant permission – usually in exchange for a donation to a charity of our choice – if your request meets our criteria.

Terms and Conditions

We are the owner or licensee of all intellectual property rights in our site, and in the information and material appearing on it. Those works are protected by copyright laws and treaties around the world. All such rights are reserved.

Materials from the site must not be reproduced in any medium without licence. You are permitted to print off one copy, and may download extracts, of any page(s) from our site for your personal use as private individuals only. You must not republish in any medium, print, electronic or otherwise, or modify, any part of the data or any materials printed or downloaded by you in any way, and you must not use any illustrations, photographs, video or audio sequences or any graphics separately from any accompanying text.

We (or the identified contributors) must always be acknowledged as the authors of material on our site.

You must not use the materials on our site (or any parts thereof) for any commercial purposes without the prior written permission of The Complete University Guide Ltd or our licensors.

If you print off, copy or download any part of our site in breach of these terms, your right to use our site will cease immediately and you must, at our option, return or destroy any copies of the materials you have made.

So we haven’t done that since! The file was sent to this mailing list so I can only assume that the CUG are somehow members or it was sent on by someone.

Thanks

John

John Lumley

Head of Planning

University of Chichester

01243 816101, [log in to unmask]

From: Academic, financial or space planning in UK universities [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Naomi Jeffery (Staff)
Sent: 20 April 2016 12:11
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: University league table publication dates 2016

Hi Sally,

We would also be interested. It is ridiculous that all of us are madly copying and pasting 70 tables into a spreadsheet at the same time.

If the league table are uncooperative, another option might be to ask for a couple of experienced volunteers willing to share their compiled spreadsheet with the mailing list – and we promise to buy their drinks at the next HESPA conference..?

Best wishes,

Naomi

Naomi Jeffery

University Executive Office | Strategic Planning

University of Dundee

From: Academic, financial or space planning in UK universities [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Yat Sandilands (sms)
Sent: 20 April 2016 12:01
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: University league table publication dates 2016

Hi Sally

Yes please, I would be interested.

Please ask again!

I’ve also contacted CUG in the past and their response has been a no.

Thank you

Yat

From: Academic, financial or space planning in UK universities [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Louise Chaddock
Sent: 20 April 2016 11:46
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: University league table publication dates 2016

Sally,

I think it would be worth asking – so yes please, ask on our behalf.

Louise

From: Academic, financial or space planning in UK universities [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sally Irene Turnbull
Sent: 20 April 2016 11:42
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: University league table publication dates 2016

Hi Helen (and anyone else who is interested in this),

We did get a commitment to the release of spreadsheets, but only from the Times/Sunday Times and in practice this hasn’t been as useful as we’d hoped: we’d asked for the spreadsheets in advance of publication, to share under embargo, but the Times would only agree to release them after publication and this ended up happening about a week after the publication date. When we (HESPA) shared the spreadsheet, the overwhelming response from colleagues was that this was far too late to be useful, so I stopped asking for it (it took a lot of chasing to ever get it).

I have spoken on a few occasions to the CUG about them sharing their data in this way, but they have always refused – as far as they are concerned, their target audience is prospective students and their parents/advisers, so they have little interest in making our lives easier (!).

Sadly, I don’t think we’re likely to make much progress here, but I can ask again if people think that would be useful.

Best wishes,

Sally

From: Academic, financial or space planning in UK universities [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Helen Lysaght
Sent: 20 April 2016 10:28
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: University league table publication dates 2016

Dear Jovan

A few years ago at a HESPA conference the league table providers promised to release the rankings in spreadsheets to save us all the duplicated efforts of downloading the tables manually.

Do you know if that got any traction? The Guardian already release their tables as a spreadsheet but with Complete releasing on Monday it would be useful to know if we’re all going to spend a morning copying and pasting.

Thanks

Helen

Helen Lysaght

Senior Data Reporting Officer

+44 1202 36

[log in to unmask]

aub.ac.uk

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From: Academic, financial or space planning in UK universities [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jovan Luzajic
Sent: 19 April 2016 11:45
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: University league table publication dates 2016

Dear colleague,

Please find attached indicative dates for publication of the main university league tables/guides in 2016. As in previous years, some of the compilers have not been able to confirm exact dates, but they have provided us with these indicative dates.

If we receive any more information before the publication of some of these rankings/guides, we will let you know.

Please note, however, that the compilers are under no obligation to share their publication information with Universities UK and they can make the decision to publish at very short notice. The table is intended as a guide – hopefully of use in terms of planning – but if you have detailed questions about publication or methodology, please contact the compilers directly.

The list is not intended to be exhaustive. We have tried to cover the main rankings/guides, but there are now a number of smaller tables/guides and also themed offshoots from some of the main guides listed.

Hopefully the information is of use.

Best regards,

Jovan Luzajic

Senior Policy Analyst

Universities UK
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