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Yep, I want to agree with Anna and Ray, as a reflection of reality and with Jason as a matter of principle. Jason’s comment has also made me start thinking about whether the creation of knowledge within the HE T and L relationship means we might want to elevate it to sacred status (a la Durkheim), but I’d like 4 buts, if I may: 1 But, good analogies and metaphors can be really useful in helping people to get a handle on something that don’t really get; 2 But a lot of the so-called student experience these days does increasingly include commodified elements, as universities put out to tender goods and services (e.g. Starbucks-like food and drink and student accommodation). I’d be interested to know if we have any examples out there where students have complained about the value of any learning resources that they’ve bought. 3 But our own academic practice increasingly includes considerations of copyright and intellectual property, with research outputs as patented products. And we do sign contracts when we write books, and we see our academic articles being sold to individuals who don’t have library subscriptions. And how many of us have been asked to buy professional indemnity insurance before we can act as consultants, which seems to imply that we need to be protected from the consumers of our advice. 4 But I would also still like to offer Phil his metaphorical free bus ride. Cheers John John Lea ________________________________________ From: Online forum for SEDA, the Staff & Educational Development Association <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of LAND L.R. <[log in to unmask]> Sent: 25 October 2015 14:46 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: UUK on universities' compliance with consumer law I agree Anna, or if, for example, courses advertised at the time of enrolment are subsequently withdrawn. Ray __________________________________________ Professor Ray Land PhD FRSA PFHEA Director, Centre for Academic Practice (CAP) Professor of Higher Education, School of Education, Durham University, Leazes Road, Durham DH1 1TA United Kingdom e: [log in to unmask] t: 0191 334 8347 web: https://www.dur.ac.uk/education/staff/?id=10278 ________________________________________ From: Online forum for SEDA, the Staff & Educational Development Association [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Mountford-Zimdars, Anna [[log in to unmask]] Sent: 25 October 2015 14:23 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: UUK on universities' compliance with consumer law Returning to the analogy about faulty equipment in a gym, from a students' perspective, it is clearly desirable to have an easily understandable, straight-forward way for know what redress is available (under consumer law if necessary) when things go obviously wrong ( I.e. if a science course is advertised as guaranteeing entry to accelerated medicine courses later on and does not, if a PhD programme is advertised as including guaranteeing access to a PGCERT type programme and does) . The Office of the Independent Adjudicator has some interesting case studies (e.g. 30) but I wonder whether there is a more user-friendly resource for prospective or current students to evaluate quickly what redress might be available to them? Anna.... Dr Anna K. Mountford-Zimdars, SFHEA, FSEDA King's Learning Institute / 57 Waterloo Road / London, SE1 8AW / Tel: 020 7848 3066 ________________________________________ From: Online forum for SEDA, the Staff & Educational Development Association <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Phil Race <[log in to unmask]> Sent: 24 October 2015 18:10 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: UUK on universities' compliance with consumer law But I like the bus analogy, and was hoping for a free degree with my bus pass. Cheers Phil Sent from my mobile Prof Phil Race Http://phil-race.co.uk > On 24 Oct 2015, at 14:55, Jason Davies <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > I wonder if our best bet is to refuse to use analogies? They send us down limiting pathways, strewn with red herrings. We can become the new analogy, perhaps? But only if we say 'no, this is unique. It is not like gyms or shops or legal contracts.' Instead if trying to 'solve' the problem of what it is, we could put centre stage that it is a complex and individual experience. > > I don't want to compare it to a bus journey or a gym (though I have done in the past). The interesting bits get lost. University is a *dignified* endeavour. we should tell them! > > Cheers, > > -Jason > ---------------------------------- > Sent from my iPhone > ---------------------------------- > > On 24 Oct 2015 at 10:26:24 BST, Chris Rust <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > I wonder if another possible analogy, alongside that of gym membership is that of the tour operator. They are responsible for the logistics, the choice of locations, the quality of the hotels, etc. but there is no way that everyone on the tour will get the same experiences and outcomes, nor would it be sensible or desirable to expect that? > > best wishes > Chris > > Chris Rust > Professor Emeritus > > > >> On 24 Oct 2015, at 10:12, Ian Scott wrote: >> >> We are selling opportunities, - we ought to have one of those statements which says we don't know what you will get from your investment; but much depends on what you do and how you fit in. >> >> Regards >> >> Ian >> >> On 23 October 2015 at 20:12, Gwen Van Der Velden <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> Dear Ray et al, >> >> >> >> This relates to the ongoing refusal of the sector to accept that there is a seller-consumer relationship. There isn’t. Students are not even buying an experience, and universities are not a theme park*. Occasionally you’ll come across the same thing in that type of statement as the transformational nature of HE. >> >> It is the political antidote to the government reference to the value proposition that HE offers for the £9K, often expressed in contact hours, access to learning resources, staff and other metrics. >> >> >> >> In most of the discussions between sector representatives (no matter the affiliation) and gov, this comes up at some point. It’s becoming a positioning statement, a bit like pointing out that universities re autonomous institutions, to remind the other side of the limits of their ability to govern the sector. >> >> I have fond memories of one VC explain in frozen tones to a Which? Representative that if they did not understand that students were not consumers and universities were not selling goods, they should give up their place at the table to someone who was educated enough to grasp the conceptual difference. >> >> >> >> Gwen van der Velden >> >> >> >> >> >> *except for the one with the lazy river in the the US, which clearly is. >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Online forum for SEDA, the Staff & Educational Development Association [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dave Morrison >> Sent: 23 October 2015 14:16 >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: Re: UUK on universities' compliance with consumer law >> >> >> >> Looks like they are making a distinction between buying an object or paying for a simple service and learning/teaching which some how different. What this could mean though is completely unclear, since countless 'standard' contracts can involve instruction, power heirarchies, long durations, assessment, etc. >> >> I see it as trying to suggest universities provide a 'special type' of service without specifying what that is. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Dave Morrison >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 5:49 AM -0700, "Jason Davies" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >> 'You pay but you might not get what you want'? >> >>> On 23 Oct 2015, at 13:42, LAND L.R. wrote: >>> >>> Anyone here any good at decoding UUK speak? >>> >>> >>> >>> 'a distinctive relationship to do with learning and teaching, rather >>> than a standard consumer contract' ? >>> >>> >>> >>> Ray >>> >>> __________________________________________________ >>> >>> Universities UK response to Which? report on consumer law >>> >>> >>> >>> Universities UK responded to the Which? report today [Friday] looking >>> at universities’ compliance with consumer law. The analysis from >>> Which? looked at the information available to prospective students for >>> 2016/17 psychology courses across 50 UK higher education >>> institutions’ websites. >>> >>> Nicola Dandridge, Chief Executive of Universities UK, said: "It is >>> important that prospective students are given clear and relevant >>> information which enables them to make informed choices about courses. >>> >>> "The university sector will continue to work with the Competition and >>> Markets Authority (CMA) to ensure that the sector is complying with >>> its statutory requirements relating to consumer protection law. >>> >>> "In relation to consumer protection law, it is important to recognise >>> that the relationship that exists between a student and their >>> university is a distinctive relationship to do with learning and >>> teaching, rather than a standard consumer contract. Universities UK >>> will continue to support universities in how best to fulfil their >>> responsibilities in this developing area." >> >> >> >> -- >> Dr Ian Scott, Associate Dean Student Experience, Faculty of Health and Life Sciences >> Oxford Brookes University >> Marston Road >> Oxford >> OX3 OFL >> 0044 1865 48 2638 >> >> >> >> Have you seen >> >> Scott, I. and Mazhindu, D. (2014) Statistics for Health Care Professionals: An Introduction (2nd Edition). Sage >> >> Scott, I. and Spouse, J. (2013) Practice based Learning in Nursing, Health and Social Care; Mentorship, Facilitation and Supervision, Wiley >> >> Ely, C and Scott, I. (2007) Essential study skills for Nursing, Elsevier >> >>