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Ruth...I will try to get transcript In AMS th week after next. Journalism generally skews it to contraversy B On 17 Oct 2015 20:13, "Brian Degger" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Will we call it singh gate? > Welcome trust has supported a number of projects I have been involved > with. We are lucky to have that institution here in uk. > It's also super hard to get a grant from them. Don't know what the pass > rate is but expect it to be in low % for public facing projects > > Cheers > Brian > > P's this email list is sooo usefull and interesting. > On 17 Oct 2015 19:50, "Ruth McAvinia" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> Seems to me this is part of a growing trend where STEM into STEAM is only >> for people who were in STEM in the first place. They get to define the "A" >> in STEAM and decide what's useful, ignoring thousands of years of human >> activity. Outreach is not supposed to be filling a gap in teaching - and I >> use filling a gap consciously with its deficit model overtones. Outreach is >> supposed to be about meeting people on common ground or on different >> ground. If Simon Singh dislikes certain project he is welcome to, but he >> might also pay due attention to the system of interpreting and >> understanding art that humans have been working on since we started being, >> and not assume that art that means nothing to him is universally >> meaningless. >> Like others, I'd be interested in seeing the full context of this. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Ruth >> >> >> >> On 17 DFómh 2015, at 19:22, Brian Degger <[log in to unmask] >> <[log in to unmask]>> wrote: >> >> anyone have the actual transcript of Singh. >> I think there is something to be debated here...and its not about science >> outreach. >> Yes they can be seen as that, but actually they are artworks with >> scientific and storytelling themes. >> We are talking piddling amounts of money. And all of it isnt even >> taxpayers money. >> None, nada! >> >> Where does the money come from? >> >> Welcome trust, whose sole aim is to popularise science and promote >> scientific research, >> >> Lottery Fund....yes they are taxpayers, but noone forces someone to bet >> on winning the lottery. >> >> I think the saying is that most of what was reported is pure red herring. >> >> 1) The scientific outreach is not actually scientific outreach >> 2) the money isnt the taxpayers, it is targeted spending >> >> In the case of Tooth Palaces, I have seen the work, heard the artist and >> collaborators talk and as far as i can see... its not just a simple work. >> >> Cmon... would £30000 even pay for 1 post doc? The salary I mean, not the >> bench fees, What size public audience does the average post-doc have? >> Her family? I would argue the average postdoc maybe talks to only a few >> non-specialists. >> >> >> Where to Now? >> >> Lets get Singh in the room with these scientists and artists and have a >> proper conversation and debate. I like most of what he says... but as a >> friend just said on fb....what he is saying now is inflammatory enough to >> make me want to believe in Homeopathy. >> >> As we say in Australia... >> He seems to be "barking up the wrong tree" >> >> Anyone who want to facilitate a conversation between him and the artists >> has just to contact me. >> Caveat....I do know the tooth palace artist. I dont know Simon. >> So as I am a bit biased....it would be good to get a moderator. >> >> This particular event sets back the whole art and science thing, if brave >> multi and transdiciplinary works are seen as a waste of time and money. >> >> Why is it important? >> Because.... Art and Science! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Oct 17, 2015 at 12:00 PM, Michael Kenward <[log in to unmask]> >> wrote: >> >>> What got me, among other things, was the suggestion in one comment that >>> Singh should be “applying his intellect and effort into getting more money >>> for STEM across the board”. >>> >>> >>> >>> Classic diversionary tactic. Don't deal with the issue, go off on a >>> tangent. >>> >>> >>> >>> My response is that such a call to arms would be great were we not >>> living under a government that sees the cost of everything and the value of >>> nothing. The idea that it will put more money into PEST work is wishful >>> thinking. >>> >>> >>> >>> So you have to think how best to spend the money you have got. >>> >>> >>> >>> In any case, even if there were more money, it would still be a good >>> idea to consider where you want to put it: £30,000 ballet or £3000 school >>> work. >>> >>> >>> >>> Does it come down to evaluation after the activity? At its simplest >>> £/”victim reached”. >>> >>> >>> >>> MK >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* psci-com: on public engagement with science [mailto: >>> [log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Francis Sedgemore >>> *Sent:* 17 October 2015 09:20 >>> *To:* [log in to unmask] >>> *Subject:* Re: [PSCI-COM] Simon Singh criticises wasteful spending in >>> science outreach | Times Higher Education >>> >>> >>> >>> It is a useful exercise from Singh, and one guaranteed to rankle. >>> >>> >>> >>> The problem is that the specific targets of sharp criticism will be >>> questioned, in some cases rightly so, and the ensuing argument can so >>> easily detract from the core issue under discussion. Also, at the same time >>> as criticising wasteful spending, one should look at the metrics used to >>> evaluate the effectiveness of outreach projects. Such critical scrutiny of >>> grant-funded projects in science communication is essential, and the >>> underlying methodology must be robust. There is always room for >>> improvement. >>> >>> >>> >>> If one can demonstrate that some expensive science outreach projects are >>> naff, such efforts will (hopefully) no longer be funded. This approach >>> works reasonably well with research funding. >>> >>> >>> >>> Francis >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Dr Francis Sedgemore >>> >>> journalist, writer and recovering physicist >>> >>> telephone: +44 7840 191336 >>> >>> website: sedgemore.com >>> >>> twitter: @hesgen >>> >>> >>> >>> On 16 Oct 15, at 22:16, Michael Kenward <[log in to unmask] >>> <[log in to unmask]>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> “The best forms of public engagement tend to be ‘dirt cheap’ and >>> profitable, says author” >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/simon-singh-criticises-wasteful-spending-in-science-outreach?utm_campaign=137702_SPIN_1215&utm_medium=email&utm_source=dotmailer&dm_i=2PXJ,2Y92,MK23B,8LLN,1 >>> >>> >>> >>> or >>> >>> >>> >>> http://tinyurl.com/q6vedrk >>> >>> >>> >>> Discuss. >>> >>> >>> >>> MK >>> >>> >>> >>> ********************************************************************** >>> >>> Commands - send an email (any subject) to [log in to unmask] with >>> one of the following messages (ignoring text in brackets) >>> >>> • set psci-com nomail (to stop receiving messages while on holiday) • >>> set psci-com mail (to resume getting messages) • signoff psci-com (to leave >>> the list) • Subscribe here >>> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=psci-com >>> >>> Contact list owner at [log in to unmask] Small print and >>> JISCMail acceptable use policy >>> https://sites.google.com/site/pscicomjiscmail/the-small-print >>> >>> ********************************************************************** >>> ********************************************************************** >>> >>> Commands - send an email (any subject) to [log in to unmask] with >>> one of the following messages (ignoring text in brackets) >>> >>> • set psci-com nomail (to stop receiving messages while on holiday) • >>> set psci-com mail (to resume getting messages) • signoff psci-com (to leave >>> the list) • Subscribe here >>> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=psci-com >>> >>> Contact list owner at [log in to unmask] Small print and >>> JISCMail acceptable use policy >>> https://sites.google.com/site/pscicomjiscmail/the-small-print >>> >>> ********************************************************************** >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> ---------------------------------------- >> Brian Degger >> twitter: @drbrian >> >> http://makerspace.org.uk >> http://transitlab.org >> ---------------------------------------- >> ********************************************************************** >> >> Commands - send an email (any subject) to [log in to unmask] with >> one of the following messages (ignoring text in brackets) >> >> • set psci-com nomail (to stop receiving messages while on holiday) • set >> psci-com mail (to resume getting messages) • signoff psci-com (to leave the >> list) • Subscribe here >> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=psci-com >> >> Contact list owner at [log in to unmask] Small print and >> JISCMail acceptable use policy >> https://sites.google.com/site/pscicomjiscmail/the-small-print >> >> ********************************************************************** >> >> ********************************************************************** >> >> Commands - send an email (any subject) to [log in to unmask] with >> one of the following messages (ignoring text in brackets) >> >> • set psci-com nomail (to stop receiving messages while on holiday) • set >> psci-com mail (to resume getting messages) • signoff psci-com (to leave the >> list) • Subscribe here >> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=psci-com >> >> Contact list owner at [log in to unmask] Small print and >> JISCMail acceptable use policy >> https://sites.google.com/site/pscicomjiscmail/the-small-print >> >> ********************************************************************** >> > ********************************************************************** Commands - send an email (any subject) to [log in to unmask] with one of the following messages (ignoring text in brackets) • set psci-com nomail (to stop receiving messages while on holiday) • set psci-com mail (to resume getting messages) • signoff psci-com (to leave the list) • Subscribe here https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=psci-com Contact list owner at [log in to unmask] Small print and JISCMail acceptable use policy https://sites.google.com/site/pscicomjiscmail/the-small-print **********************************************************************