Dear David

The economics of poetry are a taboo subject as economic factors are seen as alien in the artistic world. To indeed include economic honesty would indeed mean going back to Johnson's time. Some years ago when Irish MOR poets were all getting into writing novels one poet and publisher came clean on that move. Asked what the difference was between novel writing and writing poetry books he said "the difference was £20,000 punts" pre Euro currency.

He has not become a major novelist but did well for a while and in a career sense he got to move in novelist circles. An advance is an advance is an advance in hard cash terms. To become a journalist from the novelist mode is easier than from being a poet with exceptions. Paul Durcan being a classic exception who mastered using morning radio to become a household name.

The money in poetry is by no means small at the top end of the market. International travel with gigs clocking up air travel galore is not uncommon. To then plead "poverty" is simply dishonest if one can pack American venues where serious money is available. Free travel plus expenses and quality hotels are not to be dismissed as subject matter for singing the blues.

As I have only dipped my feet into poetry in Britain in real terms Irish examples are more apt from experience. I can barely recall when last I did a reading so no local knowledge. In an Irish context the big earners know the routes to lucre not just within Ireland. Many who are not "star names" are doing well in economic terms. Prison creative writing posts as well as lecture and reading gigs help keep the good life continue. But this is a closed shop circuit similar to what used be termed "the blue rinse circuit" in other decades.

Academic posts are not accepted for love of the arts nor serious editing work. Festivals and poetry competitions offer money too which raises issues of a moral nature in the midst of Corbynmania. A fair few who enter poems pay for their entry but can they afford it if they are on small incomes?

An economic thread runs through all our lives from birth to death. If as stated every poet claims to be "on the left" or indeed "Marxist" or "radical Feminist" then why the lack of clarity re income? I see no poets in Dover defending the migrants right to enter Britain or indeed Ireland offering to happily take them in to a renewed Celtic Tiger economy?

Will indeed click on the link again and go through it in detail David.

Best to all in Brum

Sean



-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask]
To: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tue, 4 Aug 2015 7:03
Subject: Re: Poetry On Trial: 2. “Poetry and Tribalism” by Jon Stone

The link still works, Sean. I've been looking at this thread and feeling both a lot to say and that I don't know what to say. A kind of drowning man's incoherence comes to mind. The essay seems well-intentioned but any study that has such a drift is critically weakened by an absence of Da Economics. Of course we are perpetually told there is no money in poetry, and of course again that is a lie. Obviously the rewards aren't on the scale of other arts, and only a very few become very wealthy out of it, but it is certainly possible to make a reasonable middle class income out of it with a great deal less stress you would get from other, comparable, 'middle-management' paths. This is true not only of the performance and mainstream but now that the 'avant-garde' is being absorbed by the universities it applies to that ultra-Cinderella of the arts too. The role of the 'amateur' in this is quite simple: that of food. The economic basis of professional poetry is the management and exploitation of amateurs, of the 'would-be's', usually relatively well-heeled amateurs unless there are grants involved, as in the case of the mentally ill or prisoners. The poetry scene is as ugly as our society, and every bit as horrible as the eighteenth century version pictured in Johnson's Lives of the Poets. It's not there aren't 'nice' people out there in it, like other institutions based lies, such as the churches, it has its saints, or even just fairly kind people, but overall it's enough to start King Lear shouting again.

Cheers!