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Fascinating discussion from the perspective of a confirmed lurker. I found myself thinking the crux is exactly as you all outline.. If we are to begin to measure (heaven forfend) teaching, we need to be clear about the concept of ‘learning' and why it is / should be different in the HE environment, and also we need to have considerably more clarity than currently on ‘Excellence’ , and, finally, we need to be able to clearly identify the extent to which any impact we have on learning can genuinely be ‘measurable’, which surprisingly all brings me back - as ever - to ourselves as professionals and our ability to reflect, inform our own practice and make appropriate decisions on our practice and its enhancement. 'Ein zu weites Feld' as they would have it in Effi Briest! - it is making my head spin, but I know one thing, I am not sure I trust the ‘government’ to make these decisions ….. Thank you for this Ruth Pilkington [log in to unmask] skype ruth.pilkington2 0776 3337377 > On 15 Jul 2015, at 22:19, Boyd, Pete <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > If a teacher is broadly framing the learning but allows some risk > So that the learners may respond creatively to the activity > And surprise the teacher who therefore continues to learn > (and may also take the opportunity to model ‘being a learner’) > > So do words such as ako / Jiàoyù / Bildung or even ‘education’ > Capture the idea of shared learning / scholarship > In the ‘classroom’ of the skilled teacher in school or university? > > No risk – no learning > > Pete > > From: Online forum for SEDA, the Staff & Educational Development Association [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Alice Lau > Sent: 15 July 2015 22:07 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: TEF thoughts > > Interesting, in Chinese – education is " 教育"(Jiàoyù) - the two characters mean "to teach" and "to nurture" - which I see as similar to what John said - the idea of drawing out what is already within. > Best wishes, > Alice > > > -- Dr. Alice Lau (FHEA) > Senior Lecturer in Learning, Teaching and Professional Development > Educational Development Unit > Queen Mary Building > Greenwich Campus > University of Greenwich > Old Royal Naval College, Park Row > London SE10 9LS > Telephone: +44 (0)2083319640 > > > From: Barbara Kensington-Miller <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > Reply-To: Barbara Kensington-Miller <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > Date: Wednesday, 15 July 2015 21:46 > To: "[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>" <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > Subject: Re: TEF thoughts > > I agree. Interestingly in New Zealand we use a Maori word, “ako”, which means both to teach and to learn. There is no distinction. > > Best, > Barbara > ------------------------------------------------------- > Dr Barbara Kensington-Miller > Senior Lecturer I Centre for Learning and Research in Higher Education (CLeaR) I Faculty of Education and Social Work I The University of Auckland > Private Bag 92019 I Auckland 1142 I Aotearoa/New Zealand > www.clear.auckland.ac.nz <http://www.clear.auckland.ac.nz/> I T +64 9 3737 599, ext 82091 I DD +64 9 923 2091 I F +64 9 373 7474 I E [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > > Co-editor l Journal of Perspectives in Applied Academic Practice Ihttp://jpaap.napier.ac.uk/index.php/JPAAP <http://jpaap.napier.ac.uk/index.php/JPAAP> > > From: Online forum for SEDA, the Staff & Educational Development Association [mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of Lea, John ([log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>) > Sent: Thursday, 16 July 2015 8:12 a.m. > To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: TEF thoughts > > Forgive me, I was away when we did Latin at school. The teaching was too boring. But I do remember from somewhere that there are two verbs `to educate’: one implying that we must place knowledge in a student, and the other implying that we must draw out what is already within… > > Best > > John > > John Lea > > > From: Online forum for SEDA, the Staff & Educational Development Association <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> on behalf of Fung, Dilly <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > Sent: 15 July 2015 20:39 > To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: TEF thoughts > > Can we not just reinstate the word 'education'? > > For me, talking about 'teaching and learning' rather than 'education' is a bit like talking about 'data gathering and analysis' (or maybe 'data analysis and dissemination') instead of 'research'. > > In both cases the single, more holistic term implies a richer, more nuanced, more multi-faceted endeavour. > > At least, it does in my simple mind! > > All the best > > Dilly > > > Dr Dilly Fung PFHEA > Director, Centre for the Advancement of Learning and Teaching (CALT) > University College London > 1-19 Torrington Place, > London, WC1E 7HB > > Twitter: @DevonDilly > > > Web: www.ucl.ac.uk/teaching-learning <http://www.ucl.ac.uk/teaching-learning>; www.ucl.ac.uk/calt <http://www.ucl.ac.uk/calt> > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 15 Jul 2015, at 20:22, "Brown, Ruth" <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote: > > Hear, hear, Prof Pete. > > Maybe it is simply because there are 2 words – unlike in many languages? > > Ruth > <> > From: Online forum for SEDA, the Staff & Educational Development Association [mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of Boyd, Pete > Sent: 15 July 2015 17:33 > To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: TEF thoughts > > Why do the English struggle with the meaning of 'teaching' as if it does not include learning? Ironically an obsession with 'learning and teaching' units rather than vice versa may simply add to managerialist propoganda mantras associated with massification eg 'learn more, teach less' while the oxford tutorial continues for a fortunate few. A skilled teacher is at the heart of most rich learning experiences and deserves recognition and status. The metrics are the issue and if we must have an acronym then let's keep it short :-) > Prof Pete > From: Online forum for SEDA, the Staff & Educational Development Association <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> on behalf of Jo Peat <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2015 11:09:41 AM > To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: TEF thoughts > > I’d be a taker, John. I particularly agree with positioning the focus on enhancing learning rather than teaching, which, as you say, seems to place the focus squarely on what we ‘do’ to students rather than on a partnership around learning. The divorcing of research from learning and teaching is not helpful either and just serves to reinforce the idea that research is somehow something separate and ‘different’ rather than part and parcel of the academic world with learning enhancement. > > One of my main concerns if that , if a TEF (if that acronym stays) is developed, will the people developing it be those we really need to see in that role? > > Best > > Jo > > Jo Peat > > From: Online forum for SEDA, the Staff & Educational Development Association [mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of Lea, John ([log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>) > Sent: 15 July 2015 10:48 > To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: TEF thoughts > > Thanks Julie, > > Aside from the interesting points made by the respondents to this blog about the flaws in any metrics-based system, there are also those bigger issues on which I think most of us in our SEDA on-line community agree (???): > > 1 Particularly in higher education anything which (perhaps inadvertently) encourages people (students; their parents etc.) to focus on teaching rather then enhancing learning is a step in the wrong direction. If this exercise is to be abbreviated to an acronym, shouldn’t it be a LEF – and shouldn’t the E there be enhancement not excellence, or perhaps even better, engagement? > > 2 And that’s what’s wrong with the NSS as a measurement tool. Asking students at the end of their third year about whether their teachers have been good at explaining things just encourages students to see themselves as still dependent on their teachers, and just at that moment when they should be breaking free from all that, and becoming the autonomous or independent learners that the Quality Code for HE actually demands. > > 3 And if a TEF sits next to a REF aren’t we in serious danger of forgetting what we all learnt from Elton, Healey and Jenkins and others, that one of the most important impacts of research should be its impact on student learning. And two separate measures will probably leave that debate still hanging in the air, with the old status quo pretty much intact. Wouldn’t it be a relief for all of us if the two exercises finally came together a bit more? RELIEF; now that’s a good acronym: Research Excellence & Learning Impact & Enhancement Framework. Any takers? > > John > > John Lea > > From: Online forum for SEDA, the Staff & Educational Development Association <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> on behalf of Julie Hall <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > Sent: 14 July 2015 13:14 > To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > Subject: TEF thoughts > > Dear colleagues > I think the following is quite an interesting blog,https://derfelowen.wordpress.com/2015/07/05/the-tef-what-should-it-measure/ <https://derfelowen.wordpress.com/2015/07/05/the-tef-what-should-it-measure/> > julie > > > Consider the environment. 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