medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
I'm of the same view as Richard Legault, except that to explicate a painting of this date and provenance I would cite not the KJV but rather something in Latin, preferably a late medieval Vulgate. The Vulgate used by biblegateway.com is not medieval (it's the Stuttgart _Biblia sacra iuxta vulgatam versionem_ in a release said to be from 1994) but it's probably close enough. It gives Luke 22:55-56 as:
55 accenso autem igni in medio atrio et circumsedentibus illis erat Petrus in medio eorum
56 quem cum vidisset ancilla quaedam sedentem ad lumen et eum fuisset intuita dixit et hic cum illo erat
<https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2022:54-22:57&version=VULGATE>
The Vulgate's _in medio atrio_ locates the scene outside in a courtyard, not "in a hall", and whereas one might think that the servitors were using a brazier of some sort neither _igni_ nor _lumen_ is that specific. A better choice for establishing the use of a brazier would be John 18:16-18 (note esp. _stabant ad prunas_):
16 Petrus autem stabat ad ostium foris exivit ergo discipulus alius qui erat notus pontifici et dixit ostiariae et introduxit Petrum
17 dicit ergo Petro ancilla ostiaria numquid et tu ex discipulis es hominis istius dicit ille non sum
18 stabant autem servi et ministri ad prunas quia frigus erat et calefiebant erat autem cum eis et Petrus stans et calefaciens se
<https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ioannes+18&version=VULGATE>
Perhaps the painter, not having a lot of space to devote to a brazier, chose to depict it in a common household form. See the third illustration here (early sixteenth-century) and its accompanying text:
http://www.3owls.org/sca/cook/medievalbraai.htm
Another example with such a handle is shown here (but without the grillwork):
http://tinyurl.com/qcf4ngm
Alas, the blog post from which Google took that image <http://historicalfictionresearch.blogspot.com/2013_05_01_archive.html> doesn't source it.
Best,
John Dillon
On 03/08/15, Genevra Kornbluth wrote:
>
> A torch would be logical, but then why the grill form? An Arrest alabaster, for example, shows a fairly traditional lantern: http://www.KornbluthPhoto.com/UMMABetrayal.html
> Of course, the same question applies for the brazier: why give it a grill form? If you Google images for braziers, you get (in addition to lots of scantily clad women) things on stands.
> GK
>
> On 3/8/2015 4:01 PM, Madeleine Gray wrote:
> >medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> >
> >Could it be a torch? - in view of the fact that both Judas's betrayal and Peter's took place by torchlight
> >
> >Maddy
> >
> >Madeleine Gray PhD, FRHistS, FSA
> >Professor of Ecclesiastical History/Athro Hanes Eglwysig
> >School of Humanities and Social Sciences /Ysgol Ddyniaethau a Gwyddoniaethau Cymdeithasol
> >University of South Wales/Prifysgol De Cymru
> >Caerleon Campus/Campws Caerllion,
> >Newport/Casnewydd NP18 3QT Tel: +44 (0)1633.432675
> >http://www.southwales.ac.uk
> >http://twitter.com/penrhyspilgrim
> >http://twitter.com/HeritageUSW
> >http://twitter.com/USWHistory
> >
> >'Let the victors, when they come, When the forts of folly fall, Find thy body by the wall!'
> >
> >________________________________________
> >From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Genevra Kornbluth [[log in to unmask]]
> >Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2015 7:49 PM
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: Re: [M-R] ID for an Instrument of the Passion
> >
> >medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> >I too was immediately reminded of the grill normally shown with Lawrence (more examples: http://www.kornbluthphoto.com/SaintLawrence.html ), and the red looks like fire, but that made little sense in context. I am used to seeing the brazier depicted as something that sits on the ground, as on the BM Passion Plaques (http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/pe_mla/p/panel_from_an_ivory_casket_ch.aspx ). Now I think that braziers must have taken more forms than I knew.
> >Many thanks!
> >Genevra
> >
> >On 3/8/2015 3:19 PM, richard legault wrote:
> >medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> >Gordon's idea of a brazier is better than mine. This provides symmetry in depicting two betrayals of Jesus on either side of the cross. On the left there is Judas kissing Jesus accompanied by the image of pieces of silver and on the right, Peter's denial of Jesus to the servant girl, accompanied by the brazier (a fire they had kindled in the hall). See Luke 22:54-57 (KJV)<https://www.biblegateway..com/passage/?search=luke%2022:54-22:57&version=KJV>.
> >
> >Rick
> >
> >On Sun, Mar 8, 2015 at 2:44 PM, Gordon Plumb<[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask](javascript:main.compose()>> wrote:
> >medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> >
> >Genevra
> >
> >I think it is a brazier with a fair in it - Peter was, according to the gospe4ls warming himself at the fire when approached for by one those accusing him of being with Jesus.
> >
> >Gordon
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Genevra Kornbluth<[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask](javascript:main.compose()>>
> >To: MEDIEVAL-RELIGION<[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask](javascript:main.compose()>>
> >Sent: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 18:31
> >Subject: [M-R] ID for an Instrument of the Passion
> >
> >
> >medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> >
> >I
> >am currently indexing a batch of my photographs from Warsaw, and need
> >help
> >identifying an object in a Man of Sorrows image.
> >The painting is online
> >here
> >http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wroc%C5%82aw_Christ_as_Man_of_Sorrows.jpg
> >though
> >I hope that my photos are clearer. In the upper corner, just to
> >the left of
> >Peter's denial, is an object that looks like a grill on a
> >handle, with red
> >somethings emerging from it. Any ideas what it might
> >be?
> >Thanks!
> >Genevra
**********************************************************************
To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME
to: [log in to unmask]
To send a message to the list, address it to:
[log in to unmask]
To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion
to: [log in to unmask]
In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
[log in to unmask]
For further information, visit our web site:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion