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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and cultureWouldn't the fifth nail have been the one in Jesus' side?
Jaye
On 2015-03-15 11:52 PM, "stephen Morris" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religionmedieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and cultureGood folk:
Is there ever any indication of where the "5th nail" would have been used in the Crucifixion? It's an intriguing bit of folklore; how might it have been integrated into the Passion?
Thanks in advance!
Stephen
On March 15, 2015, at 8:25 PM, John Shinners <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and cultureHi Genevra,I happen to be reading about the SATOR-charm in connection with another project, which is why it’s fresh. I’m getting the SATOR names connected to the 5 nails from a 1958 article from the Canadian Catholic Historical Assoc, by Duncan Fishwick, which is available here:http://www.umanitoba.ca/colleges/st_pauls/ccha/Back%20Issues/CCHA1959/Fishwick.htm. It’s also mentioned by Adam Lajtar & Jacques Van de Vliet in an article called “A Late Christian Ostracon from Dongola” here:The five nails seem to be a Coptic tradition. “Ancient Christian Magic: Coptic Texts of Ritual Power” (ed. M. W. Meyer and R. Smith, 1994) mentions the 5-nails & SATOR charm (p. 98) and the Coptic 5-nail tradition (p. 325, with text of charm, p. 335).Am I right in remembering that the 4-nail count is also connected with a vision of St. Brigid of Sweden? (And, mostly unrelated, is it also correct that later 14th-century Nativity details likewise come from her?)Best,John********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religionOn Sun, Mar 15, 2015 at 6:59 PM, Genevra Kornbluth <[log in to unmask]> wrote:medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion
Interesting. Among art historians, the change from 4 to 3 nails is generally associated with the increased contortion of the body as pain is ever more emphasized.
I've never heard of the SATOR/AREPO connection. John, can you suggest something I could read about that?
Genevra
On 3/15/2015 6:40 PM, John Shinners wrote:medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and cultureYes, 5 wounds, 4 nails + a spear; but there is also a tradition of 5 nails. In some instances they are named after the five words in the famous "magic square" palindrome SATOR, AREPO, TENET, OPERA, ROTAS. I'm less sure about this, but I also recall a medieval disagreement over the number of nails. Some traditions give 3 (2 for the hands, one for the feet), others give 4 (2 apiece for hands and feet). In any case, 5 sword wounds to the heart could still be analogues of the five wounds of the Passion.
John
On Sun, Mar 15, 2015 at 4:54 PM, Stephen Morris <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and cultureGood folk:
Maybe the 5 sorrowful mysteries of the Rosary?
There were generally thought to be 3 nails used in the crucifixion but 5 wounds of Christ (2 hands, 2 feet, and his side pierced by a spear).
#1 historical fantasy on Kindle Www.StephenMorrisAuthor.comSent from my i-phonemedieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and cultureCould the five swords perhaps be analogues of the five nails that pierced Jesus? That's what first comes to my mind, though I don't know the finer details of Marian iconography.
Best,John
On Sun, Mar 15, 2015 at 4:12 PM, Genevra Kornbluth <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Members of this list were so helpful with my last iconographic problem that I can't resist posting another.
I know about the Virgin Mary shown with her heart pierced by *seven* swords; but I have an image of her pierced by *five* of them.
It's on the web here, lower right:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolon_Stumme#/media/File:Stumme_Hamburg_Altar_04.jpg
Any ideas about why five would be shown rather than the standard seven? Or have I got that wrong? This is all very, very late for me!
thanks,
Genevra--John Shinners
Professor, Schlesinger Chair in Humanistic Studies
Saint Mary's College
Notre Dame, Indiana 46556
Phone: 574-284-4494 or 574-284-4534
Fax: 284-4855
www.saintmarys.edu/~hust
"Learn everything. Later you will see that nothing is superfluous." -- Hugh of St. Victor (d. 1141)
