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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Here are some browsings. Only the last one is relevant and I'll let you assess its seriousness. Many commentators prefer relating the Seven Dwarves to child labor abuses rather than to monkishness: - German scholar Eckhard Sander presumes in his book *Schneewittchen: Marchen oder Wahrheit?* (Snow White: Is It a Fairy Tale?) that the real Snow White was in fact Countess Margarete Von Waldeck. - Eckhard Sander *Schneewittchen: Märchen oder Wahrheit? : ein lokaler Bezug zum Kellerwald* Wartberg Verlag, 1994 - Margaretha von Waldeck on Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaretha_von_Waldeck - Some tabloid coverage in Weekly World News Sep 12, 1995, page 6 on Google Books https://books.google.com/books?id=uvEDAAAAMBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false - A post on Carole Bos’ blog: Bos, Carole "WHAT IF IT'S TRUE?" < http://www.awesomestories.com/asset/view/WHAT-IF-IT-S-TRUE-Snow-White>. - Karlheinz Bartels, *Schneewittchen Zur Fabulologie des Spessarts*, second edition, Lohr am Main 2012 In chapter 2 of *Bloody Murder:* *The Homicide Tradition in Children's Literature*, Michelle Ann Abate takes up the story under the theme of infanticide, citing Umberto Eco along the way. https://books.google.com/books?id=lXzRJ-7C0MkC&dq=snow+white+Umberto+eco&source=gbs_navlinks_s There is a serious literary treatment in *Fairy Tales and After: From Snow White to E.B. White, *by Roger Sale. https://books.google.com/books?id=hBVfuDRn6vgC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false Harold Bloom includes the Brothers Grimm in his junior canon. http://www.mrbauld.com/bloomjr.html and http://www.interleaves.org/~rteeter/grtbloom.html The one and only reference I found relating the Seven Dwarves to Monks is a discussion group thread that relates Snow White to the Magdalene/Templar/Grail myth, Templars of course being monks of a less humble sort than Benedictines. Holy Dan Brown, Batman! <http://osdir.com/ml/culture.templar.rosemont/2006-09/msg00001.html> Seriously yours, Rick On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 11:55 PM, John Shinners <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > “Serious” was perhaps a poor choice of words; “scholarly” may have been > more apt. I was in part playing off Bro. David’s own description of his > connection between the “playful form” of Snow White and Benedict. After > all, his piece is more musing than rigorously analytical, as was Bro. > Martin’s, the abbot who first raised the coincidental (?) link to me > between the story and monasticism. I certainly wasn’t trying to contrast > “serious/secular” and “playful/cleric” (nor could I in light of Huizinga’s > “homo ludens”). After all, one of our first great scholars of precisely > the kind of question I’m posing—the intersection of legend and history—was > the Jesuit Bollandist Hipppolyte Delehaye. > > I’m well aware of the blurry borders between history and legend (and > myth); I teach a course on the subject (including Troy and Arthur). So I’m > making no presuppositions about heiresses on the lam or anything else since > I have no evidence other than the anecdotal ponderings of two Benedictines. > > I’m simply asking whether anyone has seen scholars, presumably > folklorists, investigating the early roots of the Snow White tale and > raising the same question about its possible intentional monastic overtones > in a methodical manner. As I mentioned, my own cursory search yielded > nothing; I doubt it since I suspect there aren’t any pertinent documents > old enough to go beyond the anecdotal. I suspect it would be just as > interesting and more feasible to trace the circulation of the idea of “Snow > White and the Seven Monks” in modern Benedictine circles. > > Best, > John > > On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 11:05 PM, richard legault < > [log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture >> Is Brother David's treatment not a serious one? Or did you mean secular, >> in the sense that a non-secular treatment cannot be serious? >> >> I'm not sure what the idea is for which you seek a "serious >> exploration". Such stories are allegories, analogies and metaphors >> dwelling more in the domain of fictional literature than in serious history >> (i.e. demonstrable historicity of a folk tale being deliberately modeled >> on historical fact.) However, ever since Calvert and Schliemann followed >> Homer to Troy, this point has been rather moot. >> >> Some random thoughts follow. >> >> Clerics and Dwarves - The idea of clerics expressing humility by >> comparing themselves to dwarves was definitely alive and well in the time >> of Bernard of Chartres who is said to have died c. 1124. His student John >> of Salisbury reportedly wrote: >> >> Bernard of Chartres used to say that we are like dwarves perched on the >> shoulders of giants, and thus we are able to see more and farther than the >> latter. And this is not at all because of the acuteness of our sight or the >> stature of our body, but because we are carried aloft and elevated by the >> magnitude of the giants. >> >> The dwarf analogy has been in circulation >> <http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0162b.shtml> ever since, >> paraphrased in 'serious' writing by the likes of Peter of Blois, Isaac Newton, >> Samuel Taylor Coleridge, and Stephen Hawking. Its origin with Bernard >> is also debatable. >> >> Symbolism of Seven - As for the applications of the number seven in >> monastic, clerical and theological symbolism, the possibilities abound: >> >> - Seven (six plus one) days of creation in *Genesis*, >> - Seven first books of the Bible - the *Heptateuch* in Augustine's >> usage. >> - Seven sapiential books of the Bible. >> - Seven Liberal Arts >> - Seven Deadly Sins >> - Seven Virtues >> - Seven 'hours' of the divine office in Benedict's Rule (Matins, >> Prime, Terce, Sext, None, Vespers, Compline) >> >> I'm sure you can think of more. >> >> Grimm Sources - My sense of the brothers Grmm's sources is a long history >> of folk tales and oral transmission. I know of no specific scholarly study >> on *Snow White* in particular. Do you suppose their tale is really a >> disguised or corrupted history of some real heiress, protected or raised in >> isolation by monks, until her coming of age and accession to her rightful >> inheritance, or something of the sort? Considering the bloodthirsty >> machinations of succession most evident within aristocratic lineages >> throughout European history, such a thing ought not be too surprising. >> However, I know of no specific case on which the tale might be modelled. >> Might families facing uncertain futures possibly have found it wise to >> instruct youngsters with tales of this kind to equip them with ideas, >> alternatives and the wherewithal to overcome likely adversities of disputed >> succession the youngsters might need to face alone? Considering the short >> life expectancies in antiquity and medieval times, second, third and fourth >> marriages were common. Early widowhood, death in childbirth, plagues, wars, >> and so on would have led to many youngsters having multiple step-relatives >> all vying for the same limited store of prizes. Not to mention pretenders, >> usurpers and inordinate abundances of neglected bastards scattered across >> the countryside. Is this the idea you'd like to see more seriously >> explored? >> >> Comparables - The Merlin and Arthur stories might >> provide good comparables more well covered in the 'serious' >> literature. Arguably, even *Hamlet* fits this mold. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Richard. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 4:21 PM, John Shinners <[log in to unmask]> >> wrote: >> >>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and >>> culture >>> Years ago a Benedictine abbot gave a talk to one of my classes where he >>> suggested, among other, loftier things, that Snow White and the Seven >>> Dwarfs sounded a bit like a mythologized description of a monastery. Like >>> monks, the dwarfs live, work, sleep, and eat in community. Like the >>> precious metal liturgical plate of a monastery, they have a treasury of >>> gold earned by their mining. They guard a body preserved in a glass >>> coffin, like a reliquary. I see that another Benedictine, Bro. David >>> Steindhl-Rast, has also playfully suggested this connection in a web piece, >>> “Paths of Obedience: Fairy Tales and the Monk's Way” ( >>> http://www.gratefulness.org/readings/dsr_FairyTales.htm) >>> I come up empty, but does anyone know if there has ever been any serious >>> exploration of this idea? >>> >>> Best, >>> John >>> >>> -- >>> John Shinners >>> Professor, Schlesinger Chair in Humanistic Studies >>> Saint Mary's College >>> Notre Dame, Indiana 46556 >>> Phone: 574-284-4494 or 574-284-4534 >>> Fax: 284-4855 >>> www.saintmarys.edu/~hust >>> >>> "Learn everything. Later you will see that nothing is superfluous." -- >>> Hugh of St. Victor (d. 1141) >>> ********************************************************************** >>> To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME >>> to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it >>> to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the >>> message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In >>> order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: >>> [log in to unmask] For further information, visit >>> our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion >> >> >> ********************************************************************** To >> join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: >> [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: >> [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: >> unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to >> report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: >> [log in to unmask] For further information, visit >> our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion > > > > > -- > John Shinners > Professor, Schlesinger Chair in Humanistic Studies > Saint Mary's College > Notre Dame, Indiana 46556 > Phone: 574-284-4494 or 574-284-4534 > Fax: 284-4855 > www.saintmarys.edu/~hust > > "Learn everything. Later you will see that nothing is superfluous." -- > Hugh of St. Victor (d. 1141) > ********************************************************************** To > join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: > [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: > unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to > report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] For further information, visit > our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion