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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Many thanks, Paul!

On 3/15/2015 9:51 PM, Paul Chandler wrote:
[log in to unmask]" type="cite">medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Genevra, according to the old Catholic Encyclopedia article <http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14151b.htm> the transition from a general devotion to the compassion of Mary at the foot of the Cross to the enumeration of particular "sorrows" took place in the 15th century. Five sorrows were counted, or seven. As evidence there is reference to hymns in Analecta Hymnica: 

Dreves and Blume (Analecta hymnica) have published a large number of rhythmical offices, sequences and hymns for the feast of the Compassion, which show that from the end of the fifteenth century in several dioceses the scope of this feast was widened to commemorate either five dolours, from the imprisonment to the burial of Christ, or seven dolours, extending over the entire life of Mary (cf. XXIV, 122-53; VIII, 51 sq.; X, 79 sq., etc.)

It seems, then, that five swords may be an alternative, perhaps earlier or regional, to the more often-seen seven. 

I have an old note on the compassion of the BVM referring to A. Wilmart, Auteurs spirituels et textes devots du moyen age latin (Paris, 1932), 505-536; perhaps there is something useful there. I'm afraid I can't check it for you.

-- Paul 

On 16 March 2015 at 10:46, Genevra Kornbluth <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Thanks for the references, John.
I'd have to look up Saint Bridget's visions about the nails.
Certainly, her vision of the Nativity heavily influenced visual iconography. In the not-fully-representative selection in my online archive, you can see the change on the fourth line.
http://www.kornbluthphoto.com/Nativity.html
Genevra


On 3/15/2015 8:22 PM, John Shinners wrote:
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Hi Genevra,

I happen to be reading about the SATOR-charm in connection with another project, which is why it’s fresh.  I’m getting the SATOR names connected to the 5 nails from a 1958 article from the Canadian Catholic Historical Assoc, by Duncan Fishwick, which is available here:
http://www.umanitoba.ca/colleges/st_pauls/ccha/Back%20Issues/CCHA1959/Fishwick.htm.  It’s also mentioned by Adam Lajtar & Jacques Van de Vliet in an article called “A Late Christian Ostracon from Dongola” here:
The five nails seem to be a Coptic tradition.  “Ancient Christian Magic: Coptic Texts of Ritual Power” (ed. M. W. Meyer and R. Smith, 1994) mentions the 5-nails & SATOR charm (p. 98) and the Coptic 5-nail tradition (p. 325, with text of charm, p. 335).
Am I right in remembering that the 4-nail count is also connected with a vision of St. Brigid of Sweden? (And, mostly unrelated, is it also correct that later 14th-century Nativity details likewise come from her?)

Best,
John


On Sun, Mar 15, 2015 at 6:59 PM, Genevra Kornbluth <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Interesting. Among art historians, the change from 4 to 3 nails is generally associated with the increased contortion of the body as pain is ever more emphasized.
I've never heard of the SATOR/AREPO connection. John, can you suggest something I could read about that?
Genevra

On 3/15/2015 6:40 PM, John Shinners wrote:
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Yes, 5 wounds, 4 nails + a spear; but there is also a tradition​ of 5 nails.  In some instances they are named after the five words in the famous "magic square" palindrome SATOR, AREPO, TENET, OPERA, ROTAS.  I'm less sure about this, but I also recall a medieval disagreement over the number of nails.  Some traditions give 3 (2 for the hands, one for the feet), others give 4 (2 apiece for hands and feet). In any case, 5 sword wounds to the heart could still be analogues of the five wounds of the Passion.

John

On Sun, Mar 15, 2015 at 4:54 PM, Stephen Morris <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Good folk:

Maybe the 5 sorrowful mysteries of the Rosary? 

There were generally thought to be 3 nails used in the crucifixion but 5 wounds of Christ (2 hands, 2 feet, and his side pierced by a spear).

#1 historical fantasy on Kindle Www.StephenMorrisAuthor.com
Sent from my i-phone 

On Mar 15, 2015, at 4:35 PM, John Shinners <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Could the five swords perhaps be analogues of the five nails that pierced Jesus?  That's what first comes to my mind, though I don't know the finer details of Marian iconography.

Best,
John

On Sun, Mar 15, 2015 at 4:12 PM, Genevra Kornbluth <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Members of this list were so helpful with my last iconographic problem that I can't resist posting another.
I know about the Virgin Mary shown with her heart pierced by *seven* swords; but I have an image of her pierced by *five* of them.
It's on the web here, lower right:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolon_Stumme#/media/File:Stumme_Hamburg_Altar_04.jpg
Any ideas about why five would be shown rather than the standard seven? Or have I got that wrong? This is all very, very late for me!
thanks,
Genevra
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Paul Chandler, O.Carm.
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