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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture I'd be curious to know what people make of the less obvious symbols such as: - The three disembodied right hands to the right of the cross. Is one holding a barely visible purse, containing perhaps 30 pieces of silver? - The smoke emanating from the bust of I'm not sure whom. Could this be Pilate whose disembodied hands are being washed? If so, why the smoke and the odd-looking headwear? - The three somethings atop the halo of the woman. Three Nails perhaps? - The crossed sticks between the woman and the cross. - The dice represent the soldiers' casting of lots for Jesus' robe, but why fifteen, the sum of four, five and six? Being an uneducated philistine with no Latin, I can't tell if the surrounding inscription provides any clues. Rick On Sun, Mar 8, 2015 at 8:36 PM, John Dillon <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > > I'm of the same view as Richard Legault, except that to explicate a > painting of this date and provenance I would cite not the KJV but rather > something in Latin, preferably a late medieval Vulgate. The Vulgate used by > biblegateway.com is not medieval (it's the Stuttgart _Biblia sacra iuxta > vulgatam versionem_ in a release said to be from 1994) but it's probably > close enough. It gives Luke 22:55-56 as: > 55 accenso autem igni in medio atrio et circumsedentibus illis erat Petrus > in medio eorum > 56 quem cum vidisset ancilla quaedam sedentem ad lumen et eum fuisset > intuita dixit et hic cum illo erat > < > https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2022:54-22:57&version=VULGATE > > > > > The Vulgate's _in medio atrio_ locates the scene outside in a courtyard, > not "in a hall", and whereas one might think that the servitors were using > a brazier of some sort neither _igni_ nor _lumen_ is that specific. A > better choice for establishing the use of a brazier would be John 18:16-18 > (note esp. _stabant ad prunas_): > > 16 Petrus autem stabat ad ostium foris exivit ergo discipulus alius qui > erat notus pontifici et dixit ostiariae et introduxit Petrum > 17 dicit ergo Petro ancilla ostiaria numquid et tu ex discipulis es > hominis istius dicit ille non sum > 18 stabant autem servi et ministri ad prunas quia frigus erat et > calefiebant erat autem cum eis et Petrus stans et calefaciens se > <https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ioannes+18&version=VULGATE> > > Perhaps the painter, not having a lot of space to devote to a brazier, > chose to depict it in a common household form. See the third illustration > here (early sixteenth-century) and its accompanying text: > http://www.3owls.org/sca/cook/medievalbraai.htm > > Another example with such a handle is shown here (but without the > grillwork): > http://tinyurl.com/qcf4ngm > Alas, the blog post from which Google took that image < > http://historicalfictionresearch.blogspot.com/2013_05_01_archive.html> > doesn't source it. > > Best, > John Dillon > > > > On 03/08/15, Genevra Kornbluth wrote: > > > > A torch would be logical, but then why the grill form? An Arrest > alabaster, for example, shows a fairly traditional lantern: > http://www.KornbluthPhoto.com/UMMABetrayal.html > > Of course, the same question applies for the brazier: why give it a > grill form? If you Google images for braziers, you get (in addition to lots > of scantily clad women) things on stands. > > GK > > > > On 3/8/2015 4:01 PM, Madeleine Gray wrote: > > >medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and > culture > > > > > >Could it be a torch? - in view of the fact that both Judas's betrayal > and Peter's took place by torchlight > > > > > >Maddy > > > > > >Madeleine Gray PhD, FRHistS, FSA > > >Professor of Ecclesiastical History/Athro Hanes Eglwysig > > >School of Humanities and Social Sciences /Ysgol Ddyniaethau a > Gwyddoniaethau Cymdeithasol > > >University of South Wales/Prifysgol De Cymru > > >Caerleon Campus/Campws Caerllion, > > >Newport/Casnewydd NP18 3QT Tel: +44 (0)1633.432675 > > >http://www.southwales.ac.uk > > >http://twitter.com/penrhyspilgrim > > >http://twitter.com/HeritageUSW > > >http://twitter.com/USWHistory > > > > > >'Let the victors, when they come, When the forts of folly fall, Find > thy body by the wall!' > > > > > >________________________________________ > > >From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious > culture [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Genevra Kornbluth > [[log in to unmask]] > > >Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2015 7:49 PM > > >To: [log in to unmask] > > >Subject: Re: [M-R] ID for an Instrument of the Passion > > > > > >medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and > culture > > >I too was immediately reminded of the grill normally shown with > Lawrence (more examples: http://www.kornbluthphoto.com/SaintLawrence.html > ), and the red looks like fire, but that made little sense in context. I am > used to seeing the brazier depicted as something that sits on the ground, > as on the BM Passion Plaques ( > http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/pe_mla/p/panel_from_an_ivory_casket_ch.aspx > ). Now I think that braziers must have taken more forms than I knew. > > >Many thanks! > > >Genevra > > > > > >On 3/8/2015 3:19 PM, richard legault wrote: > > >medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and > culture > > >Gordon's idea of a brazier is better than mine. This provides symmetry > in depicting two betrayals of Jesus on either side of the cross. On the > left there is Judas kissing Jesus accompanied by the image of pieces of > silver and on the right, Peter's denial of Jesus to the servant girl, > accompanied by the brazier (a fire they had kindled in the hall). See Luke > 22:54-57 (KJV)<https://www.biblegateway. > .com/passage/?search=luke%2022:54-22:57&version=KJV>. > > > > > >Rick > > > > > >On Sun, Mar 8, 2015 at 2:44 PM, Gordon Plumb< > [log in to unmask]<mailto: > [log in to unmask](javascript:main.compose()>> > wrote: > > >medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and > culture > > > > > >Genevra > > > > > >I think it is a brazier with a fair in it - Peter was, according to the > gospe4ls warming himself at the fire when approached for by one those > accusing him of being with Jesus. > > > > > >Gordon > > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: Genevra Kornbluth<[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask] > (javascript:main.compose()>> > > >To: MEDIEVAL-RELIGION<[log in to unmask]<mailto: > [log in to unmask](javascript:main.compose()>> > > >Sent: Sun, 8 Mar 2015 18:31 > > >Subject: [M-R] ID for an Instrument of the Passion > > > > > > > > >medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and > culture > > > > > >I > > >am currently indexing a batch of my photographs from Warsaw, and need > > >help > > >identifying an object in a Man of Sorrows image. > > >The painting is online > > >here > > > > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wroc%C5%82aw_Christ_as_Man_of_Sorrows.jpg > > >though > > >I hope that my photos are clearer. In the upper corner, just to > > >the left of > > >Peter's denial, is an object that looks like a grill on a > > >handle, with red > > >somethings emerging from it. Any ideas what it might > > >be? > > >Thanks! > > >Genevra > > ********************************************************************** > To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME > to: [log in to unmask] > To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] > To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion > to: [log in to unmask] > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] > For further information, visit our web site: > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion > ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion