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If Alan wants full details of comrades in the miners union in Donbas nicely published and placing them in an even more vulnerable position it won't happen. Anymore than Colombia Solidarity would publish fine details. But he can talk to the Independent Miners Union directly, if he actually cares about them. Their details are publically available as are their reports. I am sure they will be very happy to hear from him. . Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device -----Original Message----- From: Alan Freeman <[log in to unmask]> Sender: "To complement the journal 'Capital and Class' (ISSN 0 309 8786)" <[log in to unmask]> Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 16:47:11 To: <[log in to unmask]> Reply-To: Alan Freeman <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Independent Unions Banned by Russian Seperatists in LNR My name is Alan, not Allan. I am not defending anyone’s reputation. I am defending truth in reporting. www.newcoldwar.org <http://www.newcoldwar.org> published and circulated a response to the USC’s claim, but unlike the USC, we made no claim that it is true or false. Circulating claims is not the same as endorsing them. What I did not is in advance of checking its claims assert that the circulated statement was true. I am happy to communicate Chris’s objections to our sources, as any responsible person would. I am sure they will be most interested in them. And if the evidence surfaces that the document is authentic, I have no problem in retracting any implication that it is not. In contrast, the Ukraine Solidarity Campaign did not just ‘translate and republish’ its claims as Chris states: it endorsed these claims. Chris then circulated them on this list as established truths. It’s the USC’s credibility, not that of its sources, which is in question. Anyone – especially a representative body - who makes claims of truth has a responsibility to verify, by normal methods of enquiry, what it claims to be true. We know that’s not always easy, which is why one should be cautious; but in this case, it’s extremely easy, because there is no such thing as a secret law. If the document is authentic and not forged, then it should be simplicity itself to find the evidence that the government of Lugansk/Luhansk has done what it is accused of doing. Chris could thus easily have responded by saying ‘you have a point, we will check’ – as I respond to him above. This would be a responsible answer. But Chris does not respond in this way. He states instead that he refuses to do so, and that it’s not necessary. Sorry, it is necessary, and the refusal speaks for itself. You cannot claim the status of truth for something that has only one unverified source, and that you refuse to check, when there are ample means to do so. Neither of us – I hope - would allow a newspaper or a politician to get away with such elementary evasion, so why do it ourselves? (or what are we criticising the press for? Or Tony Blair?) I won’t even respond to Chris’s absurd charges except to note that an escalation of bluster is the surest sign of every attempt to defend an indefensible act. Here is the point, and no other: either the government of Luhansk/Lugansk passed this law, in which case the USC and Chris should supply independent corroborative evidence, or it this corroborative evidence does not exist because the government never passed such a law - in which case the false public charge should be retracted. In these circumstances the defence of an unsubstantiated charge for which there is no independent evidence is a public lie, pure and simple. In respect for the members of this list, I will not communicate on it further. The matter is now perfectly clear and I am sure will be discussed well beyond it. I suggest the USC readies its defence, because it will need to be a lot better than what its representative has offered here. A From: To complement the journal 'Capital and Class' (ISSN 0 309 8786) [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Ford Sent: 23 February 2015 13:57 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Independent Unions Banned by Russian Seperatists in LNR Surprising how much Allan wants to defend the reputation of the warlords in Luhansk. I don’t remember any such cries when miners union activists were being murdered and kidnapped. Bizarre. Who is a more credible source on matters related to the Ukrainian miners –an academic in Canada who makes no secret of his sympathy for the Russian forces - or the long established miners trade union in Ukraine. Allan circulates lies that linked the document to Defence of Labour Trade Union in Kyiv - when it has been circulated widely by activists of Independent Mineworkers Union of Ukraine. Who have also been persecuted in the DNR/LNR . That they refuse to allow the Independent Trade Union of Baracova mine is hardly surprising, that the document stating so cites the authority of a direct order of the Minister of Justice in LNR is similarly hardly surprising. The persecution of the established trade unions has been recorded by the unions for months. The Ukraine Solidarity Campaign has rightly had this translated and republished – is it not correct that the wider movement also know what union activists in Ukraine have already widely published. Or is Allan saying that the union at Baracova mine are liars also? In a message dated 23/02/2015 18:24:12 GMT Standard Time, [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> writes: The most telling fact is not that Chris fails to provide corroboration, but that he refuses to. Instead, he bases his defence on the principle of authority, which is an ecclesiastical defence, not a scientific one. A basic principle of truth is independent corroboration and this is what he rejects. It is precisely in order to bring killing to a halt that we need truth. The baseless murder of countless Iraqis was directly facilitated by the lie that Saddam Hussain possessed weapons of mass destruction. The Ukraine Solidarity Campaign is broadcasting a serious charge, that the government of Luhansk/Lugansk has passed a law banning trade unions. This is easily checked: there is no such thing as a secret law. Even the most authoritarian of dictatorships publishes its laws. The committee should either provide independent corroboration (and if this materialises I will of course recognise my own error) or withdraw its claim as baseless. If it rejects even the responsibility to seek such independent corroboration, then the statement is no longer a mere falsehood; it is a lie. If it circulates a lie in the name of trade unions it claims to represent, the Ukraine Solidarity Committee damages not only those it lies about, but these very unions, not to mention its supporters: it bring them into discredit, depriving them of any independent means to advance their cause. For all these reasons, the statement should be withdrawn. Alan -----Original Message----- From: To complement the journal 'Capital and Class' (ISSN 0 309 8786) [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Julian Wells Sent: 23 February 2015 06:55 To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Independent Unions Banned by Russian Seperatists in LNR For the record, I deplore the murder of any workers, whether they belong to independent, "independent" or thoroughly dependent yellow trade unions (or indeed none at all). As Alan Freeman has attempted to explain to you, if the document in question is genuine it can presumably be traced to some official source. It is conceivable that the authorities wish to conceal the existence of such a ban, but if so it is difficult to see why they would then send a letter about it to the alleged victims, who have every incentive to publicise it. I conclude from the fact that you offer not the slightest clue as to how one might verify this letter that you cannot in fact do so. That being so, I see no point in continuing this correspondence. Julian On 23 Feb 2015, at 12:40, Chris Ford wrote: > I must say it is rather disappointing some people are so upset about this but have never said a word about the murder of Independent Miners Union activists widely publicised. > Chris > Sent from my BlackBerryR wireless device > > -----Original Message----- > From: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 12:32:20 > To: Julian Wells<[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> >; Alan Freeman<[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > > Reply-To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > Cc: <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > > Subject: Re: Independent Unions Banned by Russian Seperatists in LNR > > The idea this was forged by Oleg Vernik of Defence of Labour is just groundless smears. When it was originally published by the Independent Miners Union in Ukraine. > Sent from my BlackBerryR wireless device > > -----Original Message----- > From: Julian Wells <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > > Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 12:04:02 > To: Chris Ford<[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> >; Alan Freeman<[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > > Cc: <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > > Subject: Re: Independent Unions Banned by Russian Seperatists in LNR > > The people of the Donbass appear to face an unpalatable choice between rival gangs of oligarchs. In the circumstances, it is not unreasonable to choose the gang who will at least allow one to speak one's native language. > > As to the matter in hand, Chris's method of verifying evidence is akin to accepting the Titchborne Claimant's case on the basis of the photographs flourished by his supporters. > > Julian > > > On 23 Feb 2015, at 11:42, Chris Ford wrote: > >> Allan, >> >> The only evidence it is fake is a rant by this person on his blog which includes smears and lies about Ukrainian unions and individual activists. I tend to rely on the actual trade unions in Ukraine - who have been distributing this document wide in Ukraine. As I am sure you read the Ukrainian trade union sites and are in contact with active trade unionists there you must be aware of this fact. >> >> So perhaps you are the one who should get his facts right. >> >> Chris >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Alan Freeman <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > >> To: CPFord <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> >; CAPITAL-AND-CLASS <[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > >> Sent: Mon, 23 Feb 2015 9:13 >> Subject: RE: Independent Unions Banned by Russian Seperatists in LNR >> >> >> >> The issue is the statement which you circulated, and which is still on the website you cite, claiming that the independent unions had been banned and specifically that: >> >> "the Order was issued on 20th January 2015 by the Minster of Justice A.V. Shubin entitled: "Concerning the Ban for Registration of Independent Trade Unions on the Territory of the People's Republic of Luhansk Peoples Republic". >> >> The only evidence for this claim is a faked document, and no such order has been passed, if the information given to www.newcoldwar.org <http://www.newcoldwar.org> is correct. In that case, the above claim is false. >> >> If it's not a fake document, where is it? The republics have websites and there is a legal record of their decisions: you should have no difficulty finding corroborative evidence that this law has been passed. If you can produce it, do let us know. >> >> Alan >> >> >> >> From: To complement the journal 'Capital and Class' (ISSN 0 309 8786) [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Ford >> Sent: 23 February 2015 01:02 >> To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: Re: Independent Unions Banned by Russian Seperatists in LNR >> >> >> >> I think perhaps instead of referring to conspiracy theorists it is perhaps best to rely on the Ukrainian trade unions involved - which is the direct source of the information. The murder, kidnappings and intimidation are well recorded. >> >> >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> In a message dated 23/02/2015 02:37:18 GMT Standard Time, [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> writes: >> >> http://newcoldwar.org/reply-to-the-false-claim-that-trade-unions-are-being-b anned-in-luhansk/ >> >> >> >> >